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Calaveras
05-28-2006, 08:55 AM
Thought I'd post a few reactions to the new Jag that I haven't seen discussed yet:

In the good column the new convertible has a deployable roll bar that comes up if the car acts like it is going to roll over. At least the brochure I got says it does. Assuming that it works as advertised, I think that is a very important addition for those of us who like the convertible. Hopefully none of us will ever need it but it is something you need absolutely when you need it (unlike an airbag, which I think just adds bruises and repair expense for those of us who always buckle up). The roll bar probably won't even add to the repair expense since an aluminum car that rolls over is probably totalled in all cases.

I also like the improved transmission and paddle shifters. The least satisfying part of my 99 MY XK8 is the hesitation on downshifts when trying to accelerate from 35-45 mph. Now we can just paddle down and go. Great.

I commented elsewhere about the overall styling. I like the front better than I thought I would although it tells anyone knowledgeable that it was borrowed from Aston Martin. Not the worst of role models and, yes, I know how that happened. For me, however, the new car lost the sleek lines of the XK8/XKR and is a step backwards.

Clearly a negative are the new door handles, which now stick out like kitchen drawer pulls. Why would Jaguar abandon the unobtrusive, almost hidden handles of the XK8/XKR? The sales person at my dealership mentioned them as a good feature - "Look, they finally put proper handles on the doors" but I can't see the advantage. Was there some problem with the old style?

If someone sees the new convertible in white, please let us know how it looks and post pictures if you can. That's the color I have and like in the XK8 and would be the one I'd want (I think) if I chose to buy a new model.

Mike
05-28-2006, 10:38 AM
An issue with the roll bars would be how sensitive they are. I agree that in a rollover, damage that they do won't matter. But what if they go off too easily? A coworkers M3 was rear ended and then pushed into the car in front of him -- it set off his rollbar. The car had damage, but tearing up the top and rear window would have added substantially to the repair cost. OTHO, the BMW system may be very sensitive because it does not cause damage when it goes of and is resetable.

-Mike

Jose'
05-28-2006, 09:47 PM
2 reason why the door handles are the way they are.

1. In a side impact with the old doors the handle can easily get stuck and

2. Styling. They look better.

AvengerWannaBe
05-29-2006, 01:17 AM
I agree, ditto,..with Mike. I have questioned a dealer at length, re the dependability of the "pop-up" roll bars. I am also concerned, that these roll bars might engage, if the car were in a minor rear-end situation ([Oops!]..does happen..sigh). The only info that I got, was..."Oh.. NO". The sales people maintain that these will only deploy, when the car is in a "tipping" behavior. What if ...I hit a pothole on a steep/curving mountain highway? Anyone know more..?????

Calaveras
05-29-2006, 08:46 AM
I would think wheel deflections caused by potholes would not be likely to trigger the system. The engineers must have taken that into account. I'd be more worried about some of the street parking in places like San Francisco where one side of the car can be quite a bit higher than the other. Hopefully the trigger point on tipping is really at the point where it's definitely going to go over.

Does anyone know how these systems are engineered? Does triggering take into account both the side to side angle as well as loading on the wheels (perhaps from suspension travel)? I suppose they also need to cover the possibility of an end over end crash.

Overall, I still think this is a great addition. I sometimes drive pretty aggressively but on dry roads I have never had the tires come loose in my XK8 even when you can feel the sidewalls give a little. So I don't expect to roll the car on my own, but there's always a chance some idiot won't see you and will force you off a shoulder. If you go off a road at speed I think there's a fair chance of a roll over from hitting a culvert, catching a wheel, whatever. I see rolled cars along highways a few times a year since I do most of my driving on rural highways and interstates where speeds are high and the green space adjacent to the roads is hilly and typically has a drainage ditch or earthen berms.

kairys
05-29-2006, 05:50 PM
I have not seen it in white. However,I have seen it in Black, JRG, Liquid Silver, and Indigo (the color I have ordered}. I would have gotten it in ultraviolet, but I refuse to pay $1,000 for a color that is normally applied on the line in the UK. BTW, my sales manager told me that they were going to drop the ultraviolet and the BRG from the line soon. That's a pity. BRG is the traditional color for Jags. When I drove it, I used the paddles exclusively. It drove very my like a manual transmission car except you could not exceed red line (it would up shift on exceloration or not down shift). The top (hood to you Brits) is impeccable, the best I have seen and I am a Concours judge, so I have seen them all. I also tried the XJR, but it seemed to be just a more expensive S-Type R, that I already have (driving impression).

xkrconv
05-29-2006, 08:28 PM
I saw a white one at Hornburg in West Hollywood, CA. At the risk of triggering a flame from Jose, I have to say, I was not taken with the look. I think this is why it has not been shown in public photos. The black minimizes the "weight" of the more modern car. A trick employed by women for years. Maybe they will try pinstripes on the next one.

I have had two XKRs, a 2001 coupe and 2005 convertible. I loved the coupe and currently love the convertible. They are among the best cars ever had. They are also the most beautiful. There is a character to them which is completely lost in the new car. It appears Jag was hoping to take make an evolutionary design, rather than revolutionary. It seems they have, but natural selection may not as kind as they had hoped. I know my current XKR will be my last.

Jose'
05-29-2006, 10:34 PM
I have never flamed anyone for not liking the car. I'm the one who has been flamed on this board for liking it by those who had never even seen it in person. I just tell people to go and see it and imform them that ALL cars from now on have to obey by Pedestrian Safety Laws which limit what you can do with the shape of the front bumper. A lot of people will be driving very old cars if they do not accept this.

CrashNash
05-30-2006, 08:12 AM
Guess I will be driving my 05 XK8 for a long time. I think my front end is better looking then the new one and overall-think the 05 is a better looking car then the 07. Just my opinion.

CrashNash

Jose'
05-30-2006, 09:33 AM
My point was that eventually ALL cars will use a simular front end and sooner or later it will be time to trade up.

xkrconv
05-30-2006, 06:45 PM
The legal requirements have nothing to do with the lack of humanity. The new car, with its more deliberate stance, and angular body evokes a powerful machine. The interior's clean lines evoke the stylings of a BMW. The point is, if I wanted a bad [Oops!] looking perfect oven on wheels, I would buy a BMW.

The humanity and personality lies in the imperfection and rounded appearance. When I was in college, I drove an Alfa and loved it for the uneven stitching in the seats. It showed a human touch. The rounded lines of the of my XKR - which had to comply with a multitude of safety and impact rules and regulations - appear much more organic than the machine like lines of the new car.

As far as the pedestrian rules, take a look at the Aston Martins. Same car, same laws, better execution of the front end.

Jose, if you are not working for Jaguar now, you should drop them a line, they should pay their biggest advocate.

Jose'
05-30-2006, 08:31 PM
The new Astons went into production before Pedestrian Safety Laws went into effect. Jaguar's biggest advocate? Yeah right. The only Jag that truly appeals to me right now is the XK. Did I take a cheap shot at you? No. I just explained PSL and that all cars will have to obey by it if they want to be sold in Europe. It's not just Jaguar like most seem think. There are specific measurements that they must go by. The Aston's are not the same car as you say. Different platform, suspension, and engines. The V8 in the Vantage is based on Jaguar's AJ-V8 though.

xkrconv
05-30-2006, 10:26 PM
Jose,

I did not accuse you of taking a cheap shot, and hope you did perceive my statement as the same. The fact is, you are a strong advocate and Jaguar is lucky to have you on their side.

As far as platforms, the db9 is substantially similar.

Jose'
05-31-2006, 12:59 AM
It's a completely different platform. The XK uses a modified version of the XJ's platform and the Vantage uses Aston's Virtical/Horizontal platform. Aston's platform really does look strange. The only thing the two platforms have in common is that they are both aluminum.

Jose'
05-31-2006, 07:36 PM
Meant to say DB9 instead of Vantage but those two cars both use the V/H platform.

jagdoctor
06-01-2006, 08:20 PM
Car must pas 45 degree side tilt to go off.
If the top is up, it goes through the glass and you need a new top.
No provision for going off from front, rear or side collision.

If you remove the sensor from its mount and tilt it, they will deploy.

AvengerWannaBe
06-02-2006, 12:09 AM
I spoke with a new dealer today, re the rollbars. He said, like Vic describes, the car must tip past a certain degree (he did not offer the minimum angle for deployment). He said that this system is engineered like an airplane, the electronics being able to sense the "angle of tip" of the vehicle. When the rollbars are deployed, it is enacted by an explosive charge, much like an airbag. If the top is down, no damage will be done to the body of the car,...butttt...re-engaging/"re-setting" the rollbars is a fairly major operation, that must be performed by the dealer. Sounds pricey to me... Don't tip the car!

Calaveras
06-02-2006, 08:22 AM
It surely will be expensive to reset the roll bars if they deploy but if I find myself in my 99 MY XK8 with the car tipped 45 deg the thought in my head will be "Jeez, I wish I had those new XK rollbars on this car" and not "Thank God I'm not going to incur $3000 in roll bar resetting cost if I somehow survive this crash while using my head and neck as a roll bar." OK, my real thought would be "Oh, F.ck" in either car but hopefully you get my point.

Assuming they work, the roll bars are a very good thing, IMO.

zuffaluff
06-02-2006, 11:55 AM

AvengerWannaBe
06-03-2006, 12:35 AM
I also agree that roll bars are a good idea. Mannny years ago, I felt, somehow more comfortable, in the Porsche 911 Targa, that I tended to take to extremes. 'Course that feeble support over the top of the car would likely NOT haved saved me life..? In a roll-over crash, all of your upper extremeties can be mooshed,as they flail about,... despite being strapped in (comforting thought). I still worry 'bout the sensitivity of the roll bars in the new XK. I like to challenge steeeep, currrrvaceous roads..which can be found in our general area. Hope Jag's engineers have considered the VERY steep, "tilting" nature of many western U.S. back roads...?

Kaptain
06-03-2006, 07:00 PM
Same car? The new Aston Martins are not the same as the new XK.

The previous XK8 was first built ten years ago.

The new V8 Vantage went on sale in Europe earlier than the new XK.

A higher percentage of pedestrians are killed and injured in Europe than in North America. The new regulations took effect last fall.

Here is an excerpt from a motorsportscenter.com interview with Henrik Fisker, Aston Martin's Director of Design from 2001 until December of 2004.

<B>MotorSportsCenter</B>: Does the V8 Vantage adhere to the <B>new European safety law regarding pedestrians?</B>

<B>Henrik Fisker</B>: The Vantage actually comes out before that law takes effect. Just to give a comment on that - and this is just purely my opinion, not reflecting on Ford Motor Company - but there is a problem today, in my opinion, where you have too many government officials that don't understand the car industry but are making up laws, with good intent, but they end up really lingering the progress of even safety. You are only looking at one aspect; when you force only one aspect on a car, like pedestrian safety, you force the company to spend all their time and resources on that aspect, where if you look at it in a more holistic way - like, for instance, what Volvo has done for years; they have always had an eye on safety. Where does it make the most sense to improve safety? Volvo is the one that came out with a lot of [safety improvements] first, not from government regulations at all. That would be, for me, the better way to do it.

This pedestrian safety restriction, I think, is <B>a waste of opportunity. And it's going to cost a lot of money, and it is money that will be paid for, in the end, by the consumers.</B>

I think there are more innovative ways to deal with [safety]. Maybe some of that will come out; there will be some adjustment - that's my prediction. Unfortunately, we will spend a lot of money in the next few years, but then somebody will realize that maybe that was not the bet ideas, and then there will be some new ideas coming up.

check these links

link one (http://www.euractiv.com/Article?tcmuri=tcm:29-117530-16&type=LinksDossier)

link two (http://www.safetyresearch.net/Library/SRS037.pdf)

link three (http://www.walk.com.au/pedestriancouncil/Page.asp?PageID=607)

press release on the new aluminum XK

- Pyrotechnic Pedestrian <B>Deployable Bonnet</B> is a world first

- System operates in less time than it takes to blink

- Advanced Sensing system can distinguish between different impacts

- Over 120 man years dedicated to system development

- Bonnet is raised in around 30 milliseconds using forces up to 50 times the force of gravity

Within the 'blink of an eye' In the unfortunate event of a pedestrian impact, the deployable bonnet on the new XK automatically 'pops' up a few inches, to create a cushioning effect between the engine and the bonnet. This helps to isolate the pedestrian from hard points in the engine compartment - and takes place in less than a tenth of the time it takes to blink an eye.

Jaguar is one of the first manufacturers to meet <B>Phase One</B> [there is a more strict phase coming in 2010] of new European safety legislation using an active deployable bonnet system. The new standards are designed to help mitigate the severity of injuries to pedestrians in the event of a collision with a car.

Legislation in the European market requires manufacturers to commit to a two-phase introduction of a range of active and passive safety improvements on all new cars to improve the protection of pedestrians in case of accident.

"The Jaguar design team embraced the idea of using a deployable bonnet when it was first considered during early concept discussions on the new XK. This clever feature saves between 50 and 65mm in height off the bonnet surface and a similar amount off the roofline, allowing the design team to maintain a very low, sleek Jaguar sports car profile on the new XK." said Ian Callum, Jaguar Cars Design Director.

The Pyrotechnic Pedestrian Deployable Bonnet provides an innovative solution to these legislative requirements whilst ensuring that the sleek lines that customers expect from Jaguar sports cars can be retained. The active system fitted to the all-new XK is complemented by a passive bumper system, the design of which helps to mitigate leg injury through the use of crushable foam and plastic covering. An advanced sensing system is mounted in the front bumper to help discriminate between a pedestrian collision and any other possible front-end collisions. The speed of the sensing time in the system is around one tenth of the time it takes to blink an eye.

The complex system has been extensively researched across wide-ranging scenarios, using 120 man-years and thousands of computer simulations, as well as tested in practice at Jaguar’s Engineering Centre at Whitley in Coventry, England. While all pedestrian impact research has been carried out using virtual tools, analysis of previous 'real world' incidents has played an important part in the development process.

One of the impressive points about the new XK's pyrotechnic deployable bonnet system is that it can lift the bonnet (which weighs 18kg) in around 30 milliseconds, which requires an acceleration rate of about 50 times the force of gravity (50g).

Physical research carried out by the Jaguar development team has included investigation of various impacts including inanimate objects such as motorway cones. This is a vital part of the process to allow the system to differentiate a person from other impacts that can be experienced in day-to-day driving.

The pyrotechnic pedestrian deployable bonnet system normally operates at vehicle speeds where it provides the most benefit and is automatically disabled outside of this speed range. The system is completely separate from any other crash protection system on the vehicle, including airbags.

http://www.theraceforum.com/images/forum/3041-57-1.jpg

http://www.theraceforum.com/images/forum/3245-0-1.jpg

http://www.theraceforum.com/images/forum/3041-59-1.jpg

The numbers are seconds.

http://www.theraceforum.com/images/forum/3245-1-1.jpg

Kaptain
06-03-2006, 07:14 PM
The DB9 uses Aston Martin's VH (Vertical/Horizontal) architecture which allows it to be stretched for the Rapide (sedan) concept shown earlier this year and shortened for the V8 Vantage.

Die-cast, extruded or stamped aluminium parts of the VH platform are bonded with strong adhesives and self-piercing rivets to make a lightweight but stiff backbone.

chrisdownunder
06-07-2006, 08:30 AM
Jose re design safety considerations behind the new door handles,it never ceases to amaze me the detailed knowledge you have about the new car, if (as claimed by you on this board) you do not work for Jag then how do you know this stuff?

PS I note you are keeping up your average hits on this board though Kaptain is chiming in when a real tech issue needs a response.

Sad thing for Jag is despite your hard hype there still seems to be a significant number of people posting who do not accept the new car is gorgeous.

CrashNash
06-07-2006, 10:34 AM
Good question--Jose--how do you have so much info on this new car--such as why the door handles are designed the way they are--and all the other stuff you have been posting in regards to the 07 XK. Don't get me wrong--I sure appreciate all the info--and all info is good when considering future purchases. Just wanted to know where you were getting it so I can eliminate the middle man.

CrashNash

CrashNash
06-07-2006, 10:37 AM
chris downunder-if you get a chance, email me at [email protected]

CrashNash

CrashNash
06-07-2006, 10:38 AM
correction Chris. That is [email protected] about that

Jose'
06-07-2006, 11:02 PM
Actually if you check the board, you'll see that most posts are positive and are usually ignored. That may be why it seems that there are more negative posts but it's really the same people posting negative comments about the car. Most of the people who don't like the car are XK8 owners. This is a much different car and they were expecting something simular to what they have. The lines are different. Buyers of other makes will see that the car looks better than anything else out there under $100,000 and most over. Do a search online for user reviews from those who actually own the car or have test driven it and you will see about 9/10 postive reviews of the styling. The door handles has nothing to do with my knowledge of the XK but of my knowledge of door handles. Just like I know that a compact transverse engine is better in a crash.

Real_Tech
06-15-2006, 07:34 PM
The roll bars do not deploy at a specific angle. The speed or intensity of the roll has a lot to do with the deployment as well. For instance if you are jacking up 1 side of the car with a floor jack the roll bars will not deploy. The video I saw of an actual deployment showed the car at an apparent angle of about 40 degrees, it looked like the car would surely roll, when the bars deployed. The car was driven up a ramp on the right side while the left side remained on level ground at about 30mph. Even though the bars deployed the car corrected and did not roll. Jaguar will never list a specific angle for deployment to avoid lawsuits and due to the fact that the speed of roll is also used.
As for the door handle design, the new handle allows a ladies hand with long fingernails to open the door without damaging her nails. If you look at XK8s or pre '04 XJs you will see the scratches caused by the recessed handle. The handle design was used on the new XJ for the same reason.

Calaveras
06-17-2006, 10:48 AM
Thanks for the inside view, RealTech. Hopefully the programming for the roll bars is as good as it is for airbags, which from what I've read do a pretty good job of deploying when needed and not in minor bumps. Given the terrible consequences of not getting the roll bars up when you need them, I'd be happy if they erred on the side of deploying too easily.

The fingernail scratch theory of new door handles rings true. My XK8 has scratches under the handles on both doors so it is not just female fingernails that can cause them. To me it is a small price to pay for the sleek lines of a handle that is flush with the door.

AvengerWannaBe
06-18-2006, 02:08 AM
Thanks, for the good explanation, re the parameters describing roll bar deployment. It is interesting, but not surprising, that deployment also involves speed of the car. I just hope..?.. that the electronic brain that directs a "panic response" has taken into consideration that all of us do not drive on "flat roads", and ..taking sharp,sometimes steep corners at speeds much greater than 30 mph...do NOT cause deployment. I am in favor of the new door handle design. Me hubby puts more scratches beneath a handle than me. I think that this is a wise, and very useful, change in design. Let's be Practical folks.

NYCXJR
06-21-2006, 12:32 AM
I'm not a heartless Joe and I do care about all automobile related injuries but personally I see little sense in pedestrial safety infused into car design. I mean there should not be a giant spike protruding from your hood, but forcing car companies to abide by PSLs doesn't seem like a good use of resouces.

While car on car accidents are common and almost inevitable, I don't believe ramming pedestrians is routine (at least not in America). How much more comfortable is it to be hit by a PSL-compliant car anyway? Are we going to see action movies where the hero gets plowed by a car doing 60mph and bounce off as if nothing happened because that car has some kind of pop-up hood?

Again, I'm all for safety. I just don't see how this is really that cost effective. Shouldn't there be more focus on reminding drives to *NOT* strike pedestrians? Or perhaps better road lights and signs?

If it could be proven that PSLs save dozens or hundreds of lives, then fine.

pimbeche
06-21-2006, 02:41 AM
Slippery on the hands when pulled to open...

Kaptain
06-23-2006, 10:33 PM
Blame the politicians, imo.


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