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View Full Version : Will Jaguar ever catch up?





Moeshesa
08-17-2006, 02:43 PM
I am looking at buying a new XJR but I am hesitant because I can buy a Mercedes CLS or BMW M5 and get more car. For example the MB CLS has 382 horses(naturally aspirated) compared to 390 horses(super charged). Is there any reason that Jaguar underpowers their cars when compared to MB and BMW?

johnsteed
08-23-2006, 04:32 PM
So what was it that drew you to the XJR? There must be some positive attributes of the car..
To be fair, if you are looking at the XJ, you should really compare it to a 7-series of S class, these are the closest competitors. Iím always a bit confused by the MB range but I guess Jag does not really have an equivalent to the CLS, a 4 door coupe. If you are looking at BM 5 series then the S-type is really the same size equivalent. You could go for an S-Type R, not quite the same performance as an M5 but a lot less expensive and still a lot of car.
It is true the Jag V8 has been around for a while but still a pretty good engine and reasonably economical even in its supercharged mode. I think the main reason the CLS get more power normally aspirated is simply because it is a 5.5l. There have been rumors about maybe a 500hp XKR-R but nothing official yet..

Moeshesa
08-24-2006, 05:41 PM
I like Jags and I currently drive a 2000 xj8. I am ready to get into a new car and I don't want something that I will see at every other stop light. The only problem with Jaguar is that their best engine will only outperform Mercedes and BMW's least powerful engines.

borgron
08-25-2006, 11:20 AM
The XJ's advanced construction allows them to be literally hundreds of pounds lighter than their competition. If you have a lot more weight you need a lot more horsepower to obtain the same performance. In day to day driving, I found the XJ's stack up very well on acceleration and handling with their competition. I test drove the 740iL and MB S500 over the same routes before buying the Jag. I had driven the XJ's on a racecourse before and was very impressed with the "at the limit handling". I have not had that opportunity with the BMW and MB; however; I've passed the age where I'm willing to drive "balls out" on the street, so it really doesn't matter. As a bonus, I've also been amazed at the mpg I've been getting with my '05 VDP. We've taken several long trips ( over 2000 miles ) and with the cruise on at 70 I'm consistently getting 30mpg. The best I ever got with my '99 XJ8 was 23mpg. Light weight and six speed transmission I guess.

friendlyghost
08-27-2006, 01:26 AM
When I was researching which car to buy, on paper I was going to buy the BMW 545. Then I drove it. Didn't like it. I drove everything on my list, regardless of its place in the rankings. The result? I most enjoyed the XJR. The press convinced me it was better built than in years past.
Moral of the story? Drive everything on your list. See which one you like to approach, get into, and drive. Then buy it. BTW, aren't AMG and M cars considerably more expensive?

Kaptain
08-27-2006, 04:34 AM
Besides, their aluminum chassis helps reduce weight, increase mpg, and improve handling.

JohnG
08-28-2006, 12:17 PM
I like horsepower overload just as much as anyone, but in the marketplace it doesn't really equate to that many sales. Yes, the big guns from MB are drool worthy engines - the former Supercharged V8, the current "6.3" N/A V8, and both new and old varieties of Biturbo V12. And I'd love to have one.

But realistically, everything in the Jag lineup equipped with the supercharged 4.2 still falls into the category of "blazingly fast". The fact that the XKR slots in between the SL550 and the SL63 in speed is not a problem. I don't think they need to beat MB in the horsepower arms race, and I don't think it would be a wise investment of Ford's limited $ to try.

Kaptain
08-30-2006, 05:40 PM
An SL63 hasn't been introduced.

JohnG
08-30-2006, 06:16 PM
Since they are phasing out the supercharged V8 in the SL55 & replacing it with the 6.3 N/A V8 that's currently in the E63.

Regardless, it doesn't affect my point. It's not going to to Jaguar any good to squander what little development money they have in a horsepower race with Mercedes. The "R" cars are faster than a LOT of other cars, 400 horsepower and relatively light weight will do that. And that's really all they need.

Moeshesa
08-31-2006, 02:12 PM
Jaguar is just now getting keyless entry and keyless ignition on the XK when Mercedes has had this feature for years. The XJ does not have an adjustable suspension, air cooled and massaging seats. They just recently began offering moon roofs, electric rear sunshades and automatic trunk closure on the XJ. I don't think that reclining rear seats is a big deal because we had an 87' Sterling that had this feature yet the XJ just gets this feature in 2005. What's the deal. Horsepower is one thing but how can Jaguar compete as a top tier luxury automobile if it does not offer all of the same options as their counterparts. How about a V12? How about the option of truly customizing the interior like what is offered with the Masserati? I love my Jag and I will most likely buy a new one but sometimes I think that the exclusivity factor comes from the fact that the Jag is not the best buy for the money.

Kaptain
08-31-2006, 03:53 PM
A special-ordered exterior and interior can be ordered at a cost.

JohnG
09-01-2006, 11:52 AM
The following is why I like it even though it lacks the features you point out:

Adjustable suspension is generally a poor substitute for a suspension system that is properly tuned in the first place. And this from someone who currently drives a car with adjustable suspension. The Jag system is BETTER because the computer adjusts the suspension as it sees fit, and they've done a fine job with the calibration of it. The ability to lock it into soft or hard modes would just muck it up, IMHO.

I do love ventilated seats, and would like to see them added. But then I'm a victim of butt sweat.

Massaging seats are really a gimmick. Sure I'd take them, but I wouldn't make a purchase decision on them.

Keyless entry? I presume you mean the systems where the car unlocks as you approach it. Because all X308s had remote keyless entry via a button on the keychain. That "you don't have to put the key in the ignition" stuff is nonsense to me, because you still have to carry a key or a big fob with you - and now you often have no where to put it except your pocket, since it doesn't hang from the ignition.

Kaptain
09-02-2006, 12:27 AM
http://forums.roadfly.com/forums/jaguar/jaguar_xk/7970460-1.html

From the press release on the new XKR

Special order non-standard paint, interior trim, convertible top:

$1,000 [this is also available for all XK and XJ models]

Moeshesa
09-05-2006, 04:52 PM
Ok the top of the line Jag has 400hp and the top of the line Benz has 604hp. I think I would rather be 200lbs heavier and take the 200+ horses. On another note I read that Jaguar decided not to use the panoramic glass roof on the Portfolio becaue it would pop out whe the car twistted. How is it that the Mercedes offers this roof on many of their cars?

kginsf
09-10-2006, 12:54 PM
I was looking at the new XK coupe the other day and the salesperson said something that surprised me. The new keyless ignition wasn't going over well with the customers. They liked the start button well enough, but you can't lock the doors when you leave the car--you just have to trust that they lock when you are out of range. Also, on the lot they found that the range can be up to 200 ft. So...if I'm lucky enough to get a parking space in front of a restaurant or shop, how do I know if my car is locked when I'm inside? If I decide to park in my driveway, can I lock my car?

I'm an engineer's son--my dad was the proverbial "Rocket Scientist". One thing he taught me is that there are lots of cool things that technology and engineering can do, but the wise engineer doesn't add nifty bells and whistles that just bring a new level of annoyance to life or potential for failure disproportionate to their utility.

Moeshesa
09-11-2006, 02:55 AM
Is the Jag system set up differently than the Mercedes system? Everyone I know that hasit in their Benz loves it. The Mercedes Smart Card has a button on it to manually lock and unlock the car. Does anyone know how this system has been received with BMW, Lexus and Toyota customers?

Kaptain
09-14-2006, 04:05 AM
The new S65 AMG costs over $182,000 and weighs just over 5,000 pounds.

Moeshesa
09-15-2006, 12:47 AM
The S65 also does 0-60 in 4.2 secs. But maybe the S550 is a better comparisson since it is less expensive than the Spuper V8 or Portfolio yet manages to outperform the Jag in just about every catagory.

urbansouljah
09-16-2006, 08:34 PM
The S-Class does not handle well. I think it was Car & Driver that said it handled like a tracker because of it's focus on comfort and excessive weight.

Moeshesa
09-17-2006, 02:07 PM
Handling aside would you agree that the s550 is a far superior automobile. I am sure that the s55 will make up in the areas that the s550 falls short.

Vic
09-17-2006, 07:23 PM
There is a lock button on the key, that's how you lock the door when leaving. It does not have automatic locking.

To unlock, you just press the button on the door handle if you don't want to take the key out.

I haven't had any customers complain about a problem with locking yet.

urbansouljah
09-18-2006, 07:41 PM
How can it be superior if it handles like crap? There has to be a balance between power and handling. All that hp just goes to waste otherwise.

the_titleist
09-21-2006, 05:09 PM
It sounds to me like "moesha" is the standard benz sack-rider and is approaching the debate with a childish perspective. Superior in this case is in the mind of the buyer. The s550 is flashy and gets the attention of the simple minded, but it is overly mass produced, and nothing short of common place in any large metropolitan area, the Super V8 is not something you see everyday, and also has the jaguar heritage behind it. You kids need to realize there is more to a car than its sticker price and the numbers you see in road and track.

Moeshesa
09-22-2006, 12:24 PM
I have been driving my XJ for over 5 years and I love the car however I think that it is time for a new car. I most likely will buy another XJ. I truly apreciate the Jaguar "heritage" and I love the fact that I do not see them at every traffic light as I do with Bimmers and Benzes. Saying that who drive Benzes are simple minded is ridiculous.

The Super V8 is unique in that they do not produce that many. However the car is far from Super. This car does not have the Jaguar "heritage" behind it. What it has is 7 more inches over the XJR. If it were Super it would have a Super v12 in it. The Concept 8 was nice but of course when the car goes into production the Execs at Jag decide to leave out all of the cool features and give us a Super v8 with oversize exhaust tips and chrome engine vents. I guess this is to make complex-minded intelectuals think that the car has more power than it does. Oh and I forgot they left the gloss of of all the wood, nice touch.

urbansouljah
09-22-2006, 07:40 PM
V12's are WAY too heavy and take away from the HP that you gain when adding those extra cylinders. That's why superchargers and turbos are better. A V12 will add a couple hundred extra pounds to the car. Can you imagine how much the DB9 would have weighed if it weren't made of aluminum? You can achieve the same HP with a s'charger or dual turbo(to eliminate lag) without adding anywhere near as much weight. V12's are a complete waste of time. They are just for those who want to say they have a big engine.

Moeshesa
09-24-2006, 09:36 AM
I thought that this is why some people opt for the Mercedes S600 over the S55. They both have about the same horsepower and 0-60 times but the S600 cost a little more.

urbansouljah
09-24-2006, 12:05 PM
Yes a V12 and an inline 6 are naturally balanced. The inline 6 has many advantages of a V6 because the weight is simular. V12's ruin weight balance and affect handling. It makes the car very nose heavy. The S600 and the S65 AMG both have V12's. One with 510 hp and the other with 604 hp.

Doug XJ8L
04-05-2007, 03:03 PM
You guys are funny... If you want to drag race MB's and BMW's go out and buy a High Powered Mustang or Vette.

Just remember, that should you purchase anyone of the afore mentioned cars, you can't look at it and say "THAT'S MY JAG."

I own a 98, XJ8L. The finest car that I have ever had the pleasure to own. It gets noticed and admired where ever I go. A couple of years ago I had to put a Jaguar plate (in the front licence plate holder) just to keep people from following and stoping me to find out what kind of car it was. Not that I really minded, but it always led to other questions and would cause me to be late to appointments.

I have never driven my Jag over 95 mph, but knowing that it will do 144 mph is enough for me. My fun is on the interstate. While cruising at 70 and I need to pass; just a little pressure on the throttle and in a heartbeat I'm at 90. And at the end of a several hour trip, I alight from the XJ8 feeling as fresh as when I started.

Gabriel
10-16-2007, 12:10 PM
Having sold all three (a S600, and new 7 just last Jan)there is a giant differnce in handling, between the Jag and the German's. XJ's make the S550 feel like a pig. The Benz's nose plunges down on braking. Lots of body roll. You have to give them alot of gas to start moving fast. I remember moving a SuperV8 into the back and giving it the same amount of gas I would give a S Class and the wheels lit up. I backed off and the car was still spinning it's tires. I had completely forgotten how light XJ's were after 9 months with BMW and Mercedes.

It's apparent on the XK as well compared to the SL550. I really hated the push button suspensions too. Most of my clients at Mercedes were never going to change the susp. setting, and few cars were ordered with the adaptive susp. option. They didn't really care about it enough to order it or they didn't like the price. (couple thousand)

The Benz's have more power but they feel so heavy. The paddle shifters on the XK blow the Germans out of the water. Boom! So much faster. You'll use the button shifters once on a Benz then forget about them because their no fun-too slow. In Mi the dealers option the BMW's and Benz's on the low side becuase there are so many dealers and the clients price shop you.

So nice to sell cars that come loaded. It's really getting to paint and wheels on XJ's. They have just about everything. Cooled seats might as well be standard because every 2008 XJ is being ordered with them.

Oh, that pan roof on the S550's is just a second roof cut nto the back. They cover the whole top with glass but from inside it's two normal roofs. Different from the full glass top Jag's concept car.

The command control and Idrive are not easy. It reminds me of the navi on XK8's. Slow, not at all user friendly. Customers were lost. We'd go over the car at delivery and you just knew they wouldn't remember any of it. Compared to the XKR I delievered last night which the owner (70+) picked up within minutes.

Can you tell I'm glad to be back at Jaguar?

Gabriel
10-16-2007, 06:00 PM
Since it was a option it was only on a handfull of cars when I was at BMW and Mercedes. No problems with it, except with the BMW you still have to insert the phob and press the start button, which defeated the whole keyless start. The Mercedes start button could be removed so you could use your key.

No one's had any issues with the Jag keyless start, but then, we show people how to use everything on delivery.

Gabriel
10-19-2007, 11:08 PM
Wait until spring of 2009 when Jaguar releases a 5.0 direct port injection supercharged V8 with over 500hp. The new "R". AMG hp with Jaguar light weight.

Gabriel
10-23-2007, 10:50 PM
So, which car did you go with? Did you drive and price out all three? My experience selling all 3 brands gave me insight on just how loaded Jag's are with no options compared to the Germans. Or how light the XJ feels compared to any steel car. Did you price up the active suspension on a CLS compared to what comes standard on a XJR?

Which navi system did you like better? Or which bluetooth? Did Mercedes or BMW tell you, after paying over a grand for bluetooth you have to pay a $400 cradle charge? The hard cradle really limits your phone choice compared to the Jag system. XJ's also allow you to link up to 5 phones.

Could you believe how much they charge for park sensors? I was so used to Jag's having them, my first week at Benz I backed a S550 into the front of another one. I thought I turned off the sensors some how. I got out the car and couldn't see them, thinking the Benz sensors were so small you can't see them. Then I found out since park sensors cost over a grand the dealership never orders them. We had almost 50 cars with no park sensors.

Same with leather. Unless it was over $55k they were afraid to put leather in the C's and E's and the 3's and 5's. The CLS was better but still carried a tax no Jag has. The gas guzzler. Which starts well over a $1,000 and goes up to $3,600 on a S600. I forgot how much it was on the M5 V10 I sold but it was up there.

viggen
11-20-2007, 08:35 PM
Not until they stop trying to cost cust themselves to success...

Compare XJ against Quattroporte -- QP better style, nicer interior design, much nicer interior materials (supposed to be Jag's strong point). QP has ferrari engine so engine note is spectacular and rear weight bias gives it superior handling.

Jag should invest another $20k in XJ, make it a real lux car and sell it for $100k. The brand deserves it!

However, not sure anyone at Jag remebers how to make a car like at the QP level anymore. Compare new Maserati GranTurismo to XK/XKR and you'll see what I mean. Xks are are great cars, but nowhere near as special as GT.

Jag's got lots of potential left in it though!

Moeshesa
11-21-2007, 10:29 AM
While ther are style elements that I really like on the Maserati I am not a huge fan of the of the car as a whole. I give them credit for not following the pack and offering their customers a unique product. I also like the idea that you are given so many options for picking out your interior. On the other hand the entertainment package is a joke. It looks as if they slapped a Radio Shack DVD kit in the car. Too bad the build quality on the Maserati is below par.....I'd hate to be guy in the stylish car sitting on the side of the road waiting for road service.

Kaptain
11-23-2007, 05:04 PM
Does the new coupe weigh less than the previous one?


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