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Chris
10-24-1998, 12:09 AM
I have lusted after a 3 series for years and have finally gotten the guts to go ahead and get a new one. However, I have followed this post for weeks and have come to the conclusion that BMW is largely deceptive, chintzy, stubborn and totally unwilling to offer their automobile at a competitive price. Nonetheless, I want one!!! I am just somewhat afraid of putting up with BMW's antics over the next few years, such as the price gouging, manufacturing defects and the "pride" of the company that simply dissallows them to admit when they're wrong. I deeply resent BMW charging for every single possible option, as if it really costs $675 to add a few upgraded speakers, $700 for a $300 cd player, $500 extra for metallic paint, etc.... You surely see where I'm coming from. Although the Acura 3.2 TL quite as fun to drive as the 3 series, it comes with all options availible on the $42,000 BMW 328 (with all options) for under $30,000, and that's with the color navigational system. And I'll bet quality control and customer satisfaction are much greater, as well. The Mazda Protege comes standard with a cd-player, while BMW wants you to give up your cassette deck and pay an additional $200 for the same thing. I'm sorry, but does anyone else think it's ridiculous for BMW call such basic items "options" and then charge ridiculous prices for them? I certainly don't mind paying big bucks for unique technology, but PLEASE BMW, stop gouging your customers for simple items that should be standard on a car with a base price of $33,400. Sorry, I just had to vent.

Jim
10-24-1998, 09:57 AM
<i>: I have lusted after a 3 series for years and have finally gotten the guts to go ahead and get a new one. However, I have followed this post for weeks and have come to the conclusion that BMW is largely deceptive, chintzy, stubborn and totally unwilling to offer their automobile at a competitive price. Nonetheless, I want one!!! I am just somewhat afraid of putting up with BMW's antics over the next few years, such as the price gouging, manufacturing defects and the "pride" of the company that simply dissallows them to admit when they're wrong. I deeply resent BMW charging for every single possible option, as if it really costs $675 to add a few upgraded speakers, $700 for a $300 cd player, $500 extra for metallic paint, etc.... You surely see where I'm coming from. Although the Acura 3.2 TL quite as fun to drive as the 3 series, it comes with all options availible on the $42,000 BMW 328 (with all options) for under $30,000, and that's with the color navigational system. And I'll bet quality control and customer satisfaction are much greater, as well. The Mazda Protege comes standard with a cd-player, while BMW wants you to give up your cassette deck and pay an additional $200 for the same thing. I'm sorry, but does anyone else think it's ridiculous for BMW call such basic items "options" and then charge ridiculous prices for them? I certainly don't mind paying big bucks for unique technology, but PLEASE BMW, stop gouging your customers for simple items that should be standard on a car with a base price of $33,400. Sorry, I just had to vent. <p></i><p>Chris,<p>I totally agree with your assessment about BMW's option Scheme but they make a hell of a lot of money on it. With BMW sales going through the roof, they will probably continue to get away with it for some time to come (ie, their cars seem to be getting better with every model). <p>My advise to you is that you should only pay dealer cost for every option!!! They should not make a dime on the options. I did not pay a dime more than cost for the options on my last two BMWs (96-328is + 97-M3). You would therefore take the invoice price for the basic car and add approximately $1000 to $2000 for dealer profit on the car (exclusive of holdback the dealer gets from BMW - 2% of total invoice). A fully loaded 328i should not cost more than $42,280 (this assumes a 2K profit for the dealer). This would include every possible option (M aero package, park distance control, Xenon, auto, sport pkg, Nav sys, OBC, metallic, Heated seats, HK sound, premium pkg etc....)<p>I hope your 42K figure includes ALL options!!!!<p>Good luck and enjoy a great car!!!

Peet
10-24-1998, 04:30 PM
Exactly how many 10 year old acuras do you see on the road? For that matter, 7 year old ones? I don't remember when they started making cars, but you don't exactly see old examples of Acuras on the road.<p>I just traded in an 11 year old 325 for $8k. Try that with a honda product. So yea, it is a little more expensive now. But it keeps its price.<p>This discussion of course assumes that we agree that the car itself is superior - regardless of finance.<p>P<br><i>: I have lusted after a 3 series for years and have finally gotten the guts to go ahead and get a new one. However, I have followed this post for weeks and have come to the conclusion that BMW is largely deceptive, chintzy, stubborn and totally unwilling to offer their automobile at a competitive price. Nonetheless, I want one!!! I am just somewhat afraid of putting up with BMW's antics over the next few years, such as the price gouging, manufacturing defects and the "pride" of the company that simply dissallows them to admit when they're wrong. I deeply resent BMW charging for every single possible option, as if it really costs $675 to add a few upgraded speakers, $700 for a $300 cd player, $500 extra for metallic paint, etc.... You surely see where I'm coming from. Although the Acura 3.2 TL quite as fun to drive as the 3 series, it comes with all options availible on the $42,000 BMW 328 (with all options) for under $30,000, and that's with the color navigational system. And I'll bet quality control and customer satisfaction are much greater, as well. The Mazda Protege comes standard with a cd-player, while BMW wants you to give up your cassette deck and pay an additional $200 for the same thing. I'm sorry, but does anyone else think it's ridiculous for BMW call such basic items "options" and then charge ridiculous prices for them? I certainly don't mind paying big bucks for unique technology, but PLEASE BMW, stop gouging your customers for simple items that should be standard on a car with a base price of $33,400. Sorry, I just had to vent. <p></i>

Alex B.
10-24-1998, 08:01 PM
Ditto Chris. Here is my list of things that I think should come standard in a new 3 BMW that do not at this time:<p>1. Alloys wheels. Even the lowest A4 comes with descent looking hubcaps, but the 323i standard wheels, are pathetic at best. Acura TL, ES300, I30, even the disgusting G20 have standard alloys instead of hubcap immitations aka steel wheel covers (i.e. 99 323i).<p>2. Folding rear seats. I do not understand why this feature is standard on most cars except the BMW 3. Even the piece of .... Japanese cars have them included at no charge, not to mention A4 1.8.<p>3. CD Player. What year are we in? It is 1998 last time I checked. If you look around you, even the ugly egg-shaped Infinit J30 back in 1993 came with a standard CD player. As Chris mentioned, the Mazda Pretege has it standard. For god's sake, some GM and Ford trucks have it standard. The TL has a Bose system along with the CD player at no charge (which may even sound better than the optional HK on BMW's). The new 3 series need to have a standard single CD player as a no charge option instead of cassette for those who want it.<p>5. Moonroof. We are talking about a $30K+ car here. I could possibly understand if the 323i did not have it, but the 328i too??? I don't get it. My present Honda Accord EX (soon to be history and replaced by a 99 323i) had a moonroof standard at sticker of $19,000 back in 1992. BMW makes this feature an option on the 3 series for a hefty $1050. I do not know too many people who prefer cars without sun/moonroof, but I do know quite a few people who do not want to pay extra for it.<p>6. Mettalic paint. Please, how many manufacturers except Mercedes are charging their customers for metallic paint these day? Even the base A4 1.8T does not charge extra for it this year (all A4 99 models at no charge). I could understand pearl white color or some extravagant color but silver, blue and green? Again, the Japanese give you this one on the house every time. Everybody who drives other than white, black or red should not be taken to the cleaners for driving nicer colors.<p>The above comments reitterate what Chris originally had posted. We LOVE BMW's and will absolutely not be swayed by mediocre-driving TL's, ES300's. I30's, or other "budget lame" sport-sedan immitations. As you now know, my 323i is 2 months away from delivery and by no means I will cancel my order because of the options I had to pay for on it. But I truely wish that BMW would consider the fact that their dkyrocketting sales figures and their success should not reflect on their attitudes to jip their new or repeat buyers on options that should have been standard all along. Afterall, it would truely be a shame if a serious BMW buyer such you as you and I, had to resort to a TL, I30, or ES300 just because the options he or she wanted added up so much to the price of his car that he or she (trying to be PC correct) could not afford the loaded car he really needed, and for just purely for economic reasons, he ended up buying something he settled for, instead of something he dreamt about like a BMW. <p>If you wish to flame me on this one, go right ahead. These comments are not intended to stir up another hate campaign against me, but rather things that I would put on my next wish list next time Santa dropped downed my chimney next Christmas.<p>Respectfully,<p>Alex B.<p>P.S.: If Patrick, Hotnut, Phred, Bimmer Dude, or any other guys who hate my guts have any rude comments or put downs to say this time, please use the "flame message area" to post them.<p>Thank You.

Bruce
10-24-1998, 09:05 PM
<i>: 1. Alloys wheels. </i><p>can't argue on that one<p><i>: 2. Folding rear seats. </i><p>folding seats = less safe storage area in trunk PERIOD...some people want room, some people want a safer place to store stuff<p><i>: 3. CD Player. </i><p>i agree<p><i>: 5. Moonroof. We are talking about a $30K+ car here. I could possibly understand if the 323i did not have it, but the 328i too??? I don't get it. My present Honda Accord EX (soon to be history and replaced by a 99 323i) had a moonroof standard at sticker of $19,000 back in 1992. BMW makes this feature an option on the 3 series for a hefty $1050. I do not know too many people who prefer cars without sun/moonroof, but I do know quite a few people who do not want to pay extra for it.</i><p>obviuosly you are 1) not tall, or 2) don't forsee yourself rolling the car...sunroofs take out about 1-1.5" of headroom and decrease the safety in the event of a rollover accident...and what is the deal with moonroofs? what advantage is there to be able to look out glass in the roof???<p><i>: 6. Mettalic paint. Please, how many manufacturers except Mercedes are charging their customers for metallic paint these day? Even the base A4 1.8T does not charge extra for it this year (all A4 99 models at no charge). I could understand pearl white color or some extravagant color but silver, blue and green? Again, the Japanese give you this one on the house every time. Everybody who drives other than white, black or red should not be taken to the cleaners for driving nicer colors.</i><p>i checked edmunds about the audis...the A4s (at least what they have listed) have charges for paint (even the 1.8T), off the top of my head i know porsche chrges for certain paint schemes...IMO the paint on german cars seems to look better in the long run than japanese cars and if i have to pay more for it so be it (but it would be nice to not have a paint charge)<p><snip><br><i>But I truely wish that BMW would consider the fact that their skyrocketting sales figures and their success should not reflect on their attitudes to jip their new or repeat buyers on options that should have been standard all along.</i><p>jipped? who? you always have this word to say in a car dealership- "no"...simple word, "no"....they have their pricing schemes and so do the japanese...they both sell cars and the both make money....if BMW would make those things standard then you would say "why does it cost so much?", right?<p><i>Afterall, it would truely be a shame if a serious BMW buyer such you as you and I, had to resort to a TL, I30, or ES300</i><p>i consider myself an extreme BMW nut, there will always be at least one in my garage from now on<p><i>just because the options he or she wanted added up so much to the price of his car that he or she (trying to be PC correct) could not afford the loaded car he really needed</i><p>"want" and "need" are 2 different things...what i want is Ferrari F355 F1, when i need is a bicycle...you buy what you can afford, and lease what you can't :)<p><i>and for just purely for economic reasons, he ended up buying something he settled for, instead of something he dreamt about like a BMW.</i><p>nobody is entitled to a BMW...BMWs are a VERY uncommon cars...just cuz he dreams of one doesn't mean he should be able to get one...hell i wanted an E30 M3 when they came out...i couldn't afford a new BMW till 3 years ago...so what you are saying is that BMW should have made the E30 M3 affordable for me because i wanted one???...in that case, ferrari should make the F50 affordable for me now since i lust/want/need one of those too<p><i>: If you wish to flame me on this one, go right ahead. These comments are not intended to stir up another hate campaign against me, but rather things that I would put on my next wish list next time Santa dropped downed my chimney next Christmas.</i><p>i didn't write it as a flame, but you might take it as a flame...i just find you logic really strange<p>you have your $$$ spend em where you want to, but don't expect BMW to change their prcing structures unless they stop selling cars....simple economics (BMW has what you want)<p>Bruce<br>98 M roadster<p><p>

Patrick
10-24-1998, 09:35 PM
<i>: Ditto Chris. Here is my list of things that I think should come standard in a new 3 BMW that do not at this time:<p>: 1. Alloys wheels. Even the lowest A4 comes with descent looking hubcaps, but the 323i standard wheels, are pathetic at best. Acura TL, ES300, I30, even the disgusting G20 have standard alloys instead of hubcap immitations aka steel wheel covers (i.e. 99 323i).<p>: 2. Folding rear seats. I do not understand why this feature is standard on most cars except the BMW 3. Even the piece of .... Japanese cars have them included at no charge, not to mention A4 1.8.<p>: 3. CD Player. What year are we in? It is 1998 last time I checked. If you look around you, even the ugly egg-shaped Infinit J30 back in 1993 came with a standard CD player. As Chris mentioned, the Mazda Pretege has it standard. For god's sake, some GM and Ford trucks have it standard. The TL has a Bose system along with the CD player at no charge (which may even sound better than the optional HK on BMW's). The new 3 series need to have a standard single CD player as a no charge option instead of cassette for those who want it.<p>: 5. Moonroof. We are talking about a $30K+ car here. I could possibly understand if the 323i did not have it, but the 328i too??? I don't get it. My present Honda Accord EX (soon to be history and replaced by a 99 323i) had a moonroof standard at sticker of $19,000 back in 1992. BMW makes this feature an option on the 3 series for a hefty $1050. I do not know too many people who prefer cars without sun/moonroof, but I do know quite a few people who do not want to pay extra for it.<p>: 6. Mettalic paint. Please, how many manufacturers except Mercedes are charging their customers for metallic paint these day? Even the base A4 1.8T does not charge extra for it this year (all A4 99 models at no charge). I could understand pearl white color or some extravagant color but silver, blue and green? Again, the Japanese give you this one on the house every time. Everybody who drives other than white, black or red should not be taken to the cleaners for driving nicer colors.<p>: The above comments reitterate what Chris originally had posted. We LOVE BMW's and will absolutely not be swayed by mediocre-driving TL's, ES300's. I30's, or other "budget lame" sport-sedan immitations. As you now know, my 323i is 2 months away from delivery and by no means I will cancel my order because of the options I had to pay for on it. But I truely wish that BMW would consider the fact that their dkyrocketting sales figures and their success should not reflect on their attitudes to jip their new or repeat buyers on options that should have been standard all along. Afterall, it would truely be a shame if a serious BMW buyer such you as you and I, had to resort to a TL, I30, or ES300 just because the options he or she wanted added up so much to the price of his car that he or she (trying to be PC correct) could not afford the loaded car he really needed, and for just purely for economic reasons, he ended up buying something he settled for, instead of something he dreamt about like a BMW. <p>: If you wish to flame me on this one, go right ahead. These comments are not intended to stir up another hate campaign against me, but rather things that I would put on my next wish list next time Santa dropped downed my chimney next Christmas.<p>: Respectfully,<p>: Alex B.<p>: P.S.: If Patrick, Hotnut, Phred, Bimmer Dude, or any other guys who hate my guts have any rude comments or put downs to say this time, please use the "flame message area" to post them.<p>: Thank You. <p></i><p><br>Alex, what are you complaining for again? When's the last time a 6 cylinder 3 series (with side impact/head srs, traction control, etc.) retailed for under $30k? Your missing the big picture.<p>In anycase, some comments on your comments:<p>6. Mettalic paint. "Again, the Japanese give you this one on the house every time."<p>True, but you get what you pay for. Compare the metallic flake in a Japanese paint job compared to that of a Mercedes or BMW. The german paint has a much finer metallic flake and more subjectively, looks better.<p>Ultimately Alex, as others will surely agree, nobody forced you to order any of these options. <br>If someone can't afford the car they want, then they can't afford the car they want. Big deal. A few less BMW owners in Los Angeles will hardly be missed. I for one, will write my check with a big grin on my face knowing that I am getting a good bargain. <p> --Patrick<p>P.S. Couldn't resist this: P.C. stands for politically correct...no need for the additinoal "correct."<p>Oh yeah, why do you dislike Japanese cars so much? I think the new G20 looks good, the suspension is another story. <br>

Andi
10-24-1998, 10:05 PM
<i>: : Ditto Chris. Here is my list of things that I think should come standard in a new 3 BMW that do not at this time:<p>: : 1. Alloys wheels. Even the lowest A4 comes with descent looking hubcaps, but the 323i standard wheels, are pathetic at best. Acura TL, ES300, I30, even the disgusting G20 have standard alloys instead of hubcap immitations aka steel wheel covers (i.e. 99 323i).<p>: : 2. Folding rear seats. I do not understand why this feature is standard on most cars except the BMW 3. Even the piece of .... Japanese cars have them included at no charge, not to mention A4 1.8.<p>: : 3. CD Player. What year are we in? It is 1998 last time I checked. If you look around you, even the ugly egg-shaped Infinit J30 back in 1993 came with a standard CD player. As Chris mentioned, the Mazda Pretege has it standard. For god's sake, some GM and Ford trucks have it standard. The TL has a Bose system along with the CD player at no charge (which may even sound better than the optional HK on BMW's). The new 3 series need to have a standard single CD player as a no charge option instead of cassette for those who want it.<p>: : 5. Moonroof. We are talking about a $30K+ car here. I could possibly understand if the 323i did not have it, but the 328i too??? I don't get it. My present Honda Accord EX (soon to be history and replaced by a 99 323i) had a moonroof standard at sticker of $19,000 back in 1992. BMW makes this feature an option on the 3 series for a hefty $1050. I do not know too many people who prefer cars without sun/moonroof, but I do know quite a few people who do not want to pay extra for it.<p>: : 6. Mettalic paint. Please, how many manufacturers except Mercedes are charging their customers for metallic paint these day? Even the base A4 1.8T does not charge extra for it this year (all A4 99 models at no charge). I could understand pearl white color or some extravagant color but silver, blue and green? Again, the Japanese give you this one on the house every time. Everybody who drives other than white, black or red should not be taken to the cleaners for driving nicer colors.<p>: : The above comments reitterate what Chris originally had posted. We LOVE BMW's and will absolutely not be swayed by mediocre-driving TL's, ES300's. I30's, or other "budget lame" sport-sedan immitations. As you now know, my 323i is 2 months away from delivery and by no means I will cancel my order because of the options I had to pay for on it. But I truely wish that BMW would consider the fact that their dkyrocketting sales figures and their success should not reflect on their attitudes to jip their new or repeat buyers on options that should have been standard all along. Afterall, it would truely be a shame if a serious BMW buyer such you as you and I, had to resort to a TL, I30, or ES300 just because the options he or she wanted added up so much to the price of his car that he or she (trying to be PC correct) could not afford the loaded car he really needed, and for just purely for economic reasons, he ended up buying something he settled for, instead of something he dreamt about like a BMW. <p>: : If you wish to flame me on this one, go right ahead. These comments are not intended to stir up another hate campaign against me, but rather things that I would put on my next wish list next time Santa dropped downed my chimney next Christmas.<p>: : Respectfully,<p>: : Alex B.<p>: : P.S.: If Patrick, Hotnut, Phred, Bimmer Dude, or any other guys who hate my guts have any rude comments or put downs to say this time, please use the "flame message area" to post them.<p>: : Thank You. <p><br>: <br>: Alex, what are you complaining for again? When's the last time a 6 cylinder 3 series (with side impact/head srs, traction control, etc.) retailed for under $30k? Your missing the big picture.<p>: In anycase, some comments on your comments:<p>: 6. Mettalic paint. "Again, the Japanese give you this one on the house every time."<p>: True, but you get what you pay for. Compare the metallic flake in a Japanese paint job compared to that of a Mercedes or BMW. The german paint has a much finer metallic flake and more subjectively, looks better.<p>: Ultimately Alex, as others will surely agree, nobody forced you to order any of these options. <br>: If someone can't afford the car they want, then they can't afford the car they want. Big deal. A few less BMW owners in Los Angeles will hardly be missed. I for one, will write my check with a big grin on my face knowing that I am getting a good bargain. <p>: --Patrick<p>: P.S. Couldn't resist this: P.C. stands for politically correct...no need for the additinoal "correct."<p>: Oh yeah, why do you dislike Japanese cars so much? I think the new G20 looks good, the suspension is another story. <p></i><p>The G20 is FWD, which automatically makes it a wannabe in the sports sedan market... <b>however</b>, the G20's suspension is actually quite good. There's a good article on it in this month's (or last month's?) <i>Sport Compact Car</i>. It's probably the best handling car out there. Its cousin, the Nissan Primera, was recently called one of the 10 best handling cars in the world by some European magazine (I forget which). Too bad it only has the SR20DE 140hp engine.. Rumor is that it will get variable valve timing and 190hp next year though... It will be a pretty nice car then. (But I still want a 328 though... there's just something about RWD :-D). --Andi

Andi
10-24-1998, 10:07 PM
<i>: : : Ditto Chris. Here is my list of things that I think should come standard in a new 3 BMW that do not at this time:<p>: : : 1. Alloys wheels. Even the lowest A4 comes with descent looking hubcaps, but the 323i standard wheels, are pathetic at best. Acura TL, ES300, I30, even the disgusting G20 have standard alloys instead of hubcap immitations aka steel wheel covers (i.e. 99 323i).<p>: : : 2. Folding rear seats. I do not understand why this feature is standard on most cars except the BMW 3. Even the piece of .... Japanese cars have them included at no charge, not to mention A4 1.8.<p>: : : 3. CD Player. What year are we in? It is 1998 last time I checked. If you look around you, even the ugly egg-shaped Infinit J30 back in 1993 came with a standard CD player. As Chris mentioned, the Mazda Pretege has it standard. For god's sake, some GM and Ford trucks have it standard. The TL has a Bose system along with the CD player at no charge (which may even sound better than the optional HK on BMW's). The new 3 series need to have a standard single CD player as a no charge option instead of cassette for those who want it.<p>: : : 5. Moonroof. We are talking about a $30K+ car here. I could possibly understand if the 323i did not have it, but the 328i too??? I don't get it. My present Honda Accord EX (soon to be history and replaced by a 99 323i) had a moonroof standard at sticker of $19,000 back in 1992. BMW makes this feature an option on the 3 series for a hefty $1050. I do not know too many people who prefer cars without sun/moonroof, but I do know quite a few people who do not want to pay extra for it.<p>: : : 6. Mettalic paint. Please, how many manufacturers except Mercedes are charging their customers for metallic paint these day? Even the base A4 1.8T does not charge extra for it this year (all A4 99 models at no charge). I could understand pearl white color or some extravagant color but silver, blue and green? Again, the Japanese give you this one on the house every time. Everybody who drives other than white, black or red should not be taken to the cleaners for driving nicer colors.<p>: : : The above comments reitterate what Chris originally had posted. We LOVE BMW's and will absolutely not be swayed by mediocre-driving TL's, ES300's. I30's, or other "budget lame" sport-sedan immitations. As you now know, my 323i is 2 months away from delivery and by no means I will cancel my order because of the options I had to pay for on it. But I truely wish that BMW would consider the fact that their dkyrocketting sales figures and their success should not reflect on their attitudes to jip their new or repeat buyers on options that should have been standard all along. Afterall, it would truely be a shame if a serious BMW buyer such you as you and I, had to resort to a TL, I30, or ES300 just because the options he or she wanted added up so much to the price of his car that he or she (trying to be PC correct) could not afford the loaded car he really needed, and for just purely for economic reasons, he ended up buying something he settled for, instead of something he dreamt about like a BMW. <p>: : : If you wish to flame me on this one, go right ahead. These comments are not intended to stir up another hate campaign against me, but rather things that I would put on my next wish list next time Santa dropped downed my chimney next Christmas.<p>: : : Respectfully,<p>: : : Alex B.<p>: : : P.S.: If Patrick, Hotnut, Phred, Bimmer Dude, or any other guys who hate my guts have any rude comments or put downs to say this time, please use the "flame message area" to post them.<p>: : : Thank You. <p>: <br>: : <br>: : Alex, what are you complaining for again? When's the last time a 6 cylinder 3 series (with side impact/head srs, traction control, etc.) retailed for under $30k? Your missing the big picture.<p>: : In anycase, some comments on your comments:<p>: : 6. Mettalic paint. "Again, the Japanese give you this one on the house every time."<p>: : True, but you get what you pay for. Compare the metallic flake in a Japanese paint job compared to that of a Mercedes or BMW. The german paint has a much finer metallic flake and more subjectively, looks better.<p>: : Ultimately Alex, as others will surely agree, nobody forced you to order any of these options. <br>: : If someone can't afford the car they want, then they can't afford the car they want. Big deal. A few less BMW owners in Los Angeles will hardly be missed. I for one, will write my check with a big grin on my face knowing that I am getting a good bargain. <p>: : --Patrick<p>: : P.S. Couldn't resist this: P.C. stands for politically correct...no need for the additinoal "correct."<p>: : Oh yeah, why do you dislike Japanese cars so much? I think the new G20 looks good, the suspension is another story. <p><br>: The G20 is FWD, which automatically makes it a wannabe in the sports sedan market... <b>however</b>, the G20's suspension is actually quite good. There's a good article on it in this month's (or last month's?) Sport Compact Car. It's probably the best handling car out there. <p><b>I meant <i>It's probably the best handling front wheel drive car out there.</i></b> --Andi<p>Its cousin, the Nissan Primera, was recently called one of the 10 best handling cars in the world by some European magazine (I forget which). Too bad it only has the SR20DE 140hp engine.. Rumor is that it will get variable valve timing and 190hp next year though... It will be a pretty nice car then. (But I still want a 328 though... there's just something about RWD :-D). --Andi<p></i>

Patrick
10-24-1998, 11:10 PM
<br>: : The G20 is FWD, which automatically makes it a wannabe in the sports sedan market... <b>however</b>, the G20's suspension is actually quite good. There's a good article on it in this month's (or last month's?) Sport Compact Car. It's probably the best handling car out there. <p>: <b>I meant It's probably the best handling front wheel drive car out there.</b> --Andi<p>: Its cousin, the Nissan Primera, was recently called one of the 10 best handling cars in the world by some European magazine (I forget which). Too bad it only has the SR20DE 140hp engine.. Rumor is that it will get variable valve timing and 190hp next year though... It will be a pretty nice car then. (But I still want a 328 though... there's just something about RWD :-D). --Andi<p></i><p><br>I have to disagree on the handling for the current G20. It use to be pretty tight, when it had a multi-link fully independent suspension. The current version has a solid beam rear axle. Terrible. Several other front wheel drive cars handle much better i.e. Integra, Prelude.<p><p>--Patrick

Andi
10-24-1998, 11:57 PM
<i>: <br>: : : The G20 is FWD, which automatically makes it a wannabe in the sports sedan market... <b>however</b>, the G20's suspension is actually quite good. There's a good article on it in this month's (or last month's?) Sport Compact Car. It's probably the best handling car out there. <p>: : <b>I meant It's probably the best handling front wheel drive car out there.</b> --Andi<p>: : Its cousin, the Nissan Primera, was recently called one of the 10 best handling cars in the world by some European magazine (I forget which). Too bad it only has the SR20DE 140hp engine.. Rumor is that it will get variable valve timing and 190hp next year though... It will be a pretty nice car then. (But I still want a 328 though... there's just something about RWD :-D). --Andi<p><br>: <br>: I have to disagree on the handling for the current G20. It use to be pretty tight, when it had a multi-link fully independent suspension. The current version has a solid beam rear axle. Terrible. Several other front wheel drive cars handle much better i.e. Integra, Prelude.<p><br>: --Patrick<p>Well I guess we'll have to disagree. The new G20's front *and* rear suspensions are, IMHO, better than the previous one:<p><ul><br><li>The new G20's front suspension has a "third link" which reduces (maybe even eliminates) wheel roll. As you may or may not know, with conventional strut-type suspensions (including those on BMW's, Preludes, Integras, and even the old G20), when the body rolls in a turn, the wheels roll with it. This means you get lots of positive camber on the outside wheel, which is <b>definitely not</b> good for cornering grip. <br><li>The new G20's rear suspension is a source of never ending controversy and it takes a very open mind to realize that a beam really can be better. You hear the word "beam" and assume it's junk. This beam doesn't use a regular long panhard rod to laterally locate the beam... the up and down motions are truly up and down because of a "scissors" linkage (called a Stewart-Russell link). So the caveat of the beam axles of the old days, the sideways jacking motion compromising up and down motions, is elminated <b>completely</b>. <br>The big advantage of the beam axle is consistent camber. The wheels are always perpendicular to the road, completely regardless of what the body does. This greatly improves rear-end grip. Also, the beam and trailing arms act as a strong rear anti-roll bar. <br></ul><p>I love RWD and I'll get that 2000 328i sport/premium next year... but when it comes to handling of FWD sedans, the Primera/G20 is about as good as it gets. All IMHO, of course, and if you disagree that's fine with me. --Andi<p><br></i>

Patrick
10-25-1998, 01:46 AM
<br>: Well I guess we'll have to disagree. The new G20's front *and* rear suspensions are, IMHO, better than the previous one:<p>: <ul><br>: <li>The new G20's front suspension has a "third link" which reduces (maybe even eliminates) wheel roll. As you may or may not know, with conventional strut-type suspensions (including those on BMW's, Preludes, Integras, and even the old G20), when the body rolls in a turn, the wheels roll with it. This means you get lots of positive camber on the outside wheel, which is <b>definitely not</b> good for cornering grip. <br>: <li>The new G20's rear suspension is a source of never ending controversy and it takes a very open mind to realize that a beam really can be better. You hear the word "beam" and assume it's junk. This beam doesn't use a regular long panhard rod to laterally locate the beam... the up and down motions are truly up and down because of a "scissors" linkage (called a Stewart-Russell link). So the caveat of the beam axles of the old days, the sideways jacking motion compromising up and down motions, is elminated <b>completely</b>. <br>: The big advantage of the beam axle is consistent camber. The wheels are always perpendicular to the road, completely regardless of what the body does. This greatly improves rear-end grip. Also, the beam and trailing arms act as a strong rear anti-roll bar. <br>: </ul><p>: I love RWD and I'll get that 2000 328i sport/premium next year... but when it comes to handling of FWD sedans, the Primera/G20 is about as good as it gets. All IMHO, of course, and if you disagree that's fine with me. --Andi<p><br></i><p><br>Well said, and I guess I oversimplified the rear suspension of the G20 (I've never heard of a Stewart-Russel link, I thought it was called a sliding Panhard rod). Still, with all its innovation, I am curious to why the roadholding skidpad figures are so poor (300 ft dia skidpad).<p>The 99 G20 is rated at .78 g, as compared to .86 g for the 97 Prelude SH and .82 for the Integra LS.<br>Possibly the G20's weight distribution (62%/38%) has something to do with it. Then again, I haven't seen the slalom figures on the car and skidpad is just one criteria.<p>In anycase, I also prefer RWD, and look forward to delivery of my 323i sport.<p>--Patrick

Andi
10-25-1998, 01:58 AM
<i>: <br>: : Well I guess we'll have to disagree. The new G20's front *and* rear suspensions are, IMHO, better than the previous one:<p>: : <ul><br>: : <li>The new G20's front suspension has a "third link" which reduces (maybe even eliminates) wheel roll. As you may or may not know, with conventional strut-type suspensions (including those on BMW's, Preludes, Integras, and even the old G20), when the body rolls in a turn, the wheels roll with it. This means you get lots of positive camber on the outside wheel, which is <b>definitely not</b> good for cornering grip. <br>: : <li>The new G20's rear suspension is a source of never ending controversy and it takes a very open mind to realize that a beam really can be better. You hear the word "beam" and assume it's junk. This beam doesn't use a regular long panhard rod to laterally locate the beam... the up and down motions are truly up and down because of a "scissors" linkage (called a Stewart-Russell link). So the caveat of the beam axles of the old days, the sideways jacking motion compromising up and down motions, is elminated <b>completely</b>. <br>: : The big advantage of the beam axle is consistent camber. The wheels are always perpendicular to the road, completely regardless of what the body does. This greatly improves rear-end grip. Also, the beam and trailing arms act as a strong rear anti-roll bar. <br>: : </ul><p>: : I love RWD and I'll get that 2000 328i sport/premium next year... but when it comes to handling of FWD sedans, the Primera/G20 is about as good as it gets. All IMHO, of course, and if you disagree that's fine with me. --Andi<p><br>: <br>: Well said, and I guess I oversimplified the rear suspension of the G20 (I've never heard of a Stewart-Russel link, I thought it was called a sliding Panhard rod). Still, with all its innovation, I am curious to why the roadholding skidpad figures are so poor (300 ft dia skidpad).<p>: The 99 G20 is rated at .78 g, as compared to .86 g for the 97 Prelude SH and .82 for the Integra LS.<br>: Possibly the G20's weight distribution (62%/38%) has something to do with it. Then again, I haven't seen the slalom figures on the car and skidpad is just one criteria.<p>: In anycase, I also prefer RWD, and look forward to delivery of my 323i sport.<p>: --Patrick<p></i><p>Most front wheel drive cars have weight distribution around 63/57... Just another sad fact of life. <p>I do not know where you got your numbers but assuming they're all from the same source, then you may be right that the Prelude and Teg grip stronger from the factory. But the fact of the matter is that overall grip is much more a function of the tires and coil spring rates than of the suspension design. The G20 is sold under a luxury marque in the USA and comes with softer springs and tires than in its Primera cousin. A set of Eibach Springs, Tokico Shocks, and Dunlop SP Sport 8000's would make it a more fair contest since the Teg and Lude are more rough riding from the factory. Once you've got good tires & springs on the G, it will handle pretty damn good.<p>I met Mike Kojima at Stillen Maxima Day this March. Mike Kojima is a Nissan Quality Assurance engineer in California and he writes the 300ZX and 200SX SE-R project car articles in Sport Compact Car Magazine. <p>He told me that his 200SX SE-R, after having been lowered and given better tires & wheels, can take 90 degree sharp right turns at intersections at 40mph and end up in the right lane. I don't know how many G's that is but it sound like a alot to me... (I can't do that over 30 in my Maxima SE with stock springs and 225/50ZR16 Dunlop SP Sport 8000's). The 200SX SE-R has the same beam axle rear end that the new G20 does. (So does the Maxima... but the Maxima comes with real soft springs that I'm about to change out for Eibachs). <br>It's 3am and I'm rambling a bit... but my point here is that if those cars grip harder it's because of their firmer springs & better tires. Give the G equally firm springs and equally good tires, and its suspension design will show its superiority by giving the G better roadholding and slalom numbers.<p>BTW you might also check recent Motor Trend data compilations for slalom numbers. The Nissan cars with the multilink beam rear suspension (Maxima SE, Sentra, 200SX SE-R, and new 99 G20) actually do a lot better than average in the slalom test. --Andi

Bimmer Dude
10-25-1998, 03:23 AM
Alex, I have never flamed you. I have just tried to use a little common sense to calm you down a little.<p>As for your post, you complain about the price, but then pay it anyway. Obviously you have decided, like many BMW buyers, that you are getting more for you money with the 323i than you would from other cars costing less.<p>The day BMW really "gouges" people will be the day that they see demand fall below supply. Until that day, we must make do with what we can. <p>You chose the 323i over the 328i to save $6,000. I chose a fully loaded 96 328i over a new one to save $10,000. I looked at the other cars. I really liked the Lexus and almost got one, but I found there "certified Lexus program" to be a bigger scam than anything BMW is doing. They include things like an extended warranty and "free" oil changes and make you pay for it while trying to convince you that all they are doing is trying to make you feel better about buying used.<p>BD<br>

andy r.
10-25-1998, 04:01 AM
<i><br>: <li>The new G20's front suspension has a "third link" which reduces (maybe even eliminates) wheel roll. As you may or may not know, with conventional strut-type suspensions (including those on BMW's, Preludes, Integras, and even the old G20), when the body rolls in a turn, the wheels roll with it. This means you get lots of positive camber on the outside wheel, which is <b>definitely not</b> good for cornering grip. <p></i><p>FYI the front suspension is unchanged from the new to old G20s. I know, I have a 93 G20 that I adore (cost $15,000 new, hard to beat that). The third link is angled backward, so it will actually gain negative camber under roll, but not straight-line bumps (no bump steer). Neat setup. The rear is simple trailing-link struts though. <br>Cheers.<p>andy r.

Andi
10-25-1998, 04:35 AM
The third link is a great feature -- negative camber under roll is exactly what you want. But you say that it's unchanged from the old G. Are you saying that the old G also had the third link? I was under the impression that the third link was a new for 99 thing... --Andi<p><i>: <br>: : <li>The new G20's front suspension has a "third link" which reduces (maybe even eliminates) wheel roll. As you may or may not know, with conventional strut-type suspensions (including those on BMW's, Preludes, Integras, and even the old G20), when the body rolls in a turn, the wheels roll with it. This means you get lots of positive camber on the outside wheel, which is <b>definitely not</b> good for cornering grip. <p><br>: FYI the front suspension is unchanged from the new to old G20s. I know, I have a 93 G20 that I adore (cost $15,000 new, hard to beat that). The third link is angled backward, so it will actually gain negative camber under roll, but not straight-line bumps (no bump steer). Neat setup. The rear is simple trailing-link struts though. <br>: Cheers.<p>: andy r. <p></i>

Alex B.
10-25-1998, 07:22 AM
Bruce, <p>you are right out about being entitled to a BMW. They are not necessities of life and obviously, not every guy who ever wanted one has now or ever will, just like the Ferrari F355 you want (I want one too, but not the F1, give me a clutch baby!). The points you make for the most part are not contradictary to all my points. Hell, I even forgot leather seats on that list, but I did not expect my 323i to have it as standard equipment since even the midsize upscale 528i does not have it standard either (go figure that one out!). <p>The folding seats are for the most part, something we should get without being charged for them. Whether we will use them in our lives or not, is not the point. It should be there just in case and it should not cost anything (ie A4).<p>As far as metallic paint, you do not have the updated Audi A4 information as I have from the dealer through my brother. The metallic paint is not an extra charge on all 99 A4's. Period. If Germans think the poor BMW drivers should only drive black, white, or red, and be charged for other colors, then I think it is strictly a $ issue for them and they want to increase their profits. I don't blame them as business people in doing so. But it doesn't mean I like it.<p>Moonroof issue is one that is personal. If you are a tall guy, you do not necessarily want to cut your headroom a bit. I am 5'10", and had no problem with the moonroof height of the new 3 series. But you have to admit, selling a used BMW without a moonroof/sunroof is as difficult as selling a Yugo in Beverly Hills. I guess others may want to skip this option because of safety reasons you mentioned or other reasons. I like for you to see how many luxury Japanese makers of cars $30K+ do not give you moonroof standard. The list if any is very few (TL gives everything standard and with option navigation system it sells for about $30K, not that I would even like to buy one. It is ugly and plain).<p>As far as the word "jip", may be the correct word here might be "greed" and "supply-and-demand". I guess as long as BMW sells stripped 528i's without wood, leather, or moonroofs for about $42K, there will be lots of demands for the Lexus GS300's, Audi A6's, Acura RL's, and Cadillac Seville STS's. I guess what should I expect if the 5 comes stripped for $41k, then may be the base 323i at $27K is a bargain ! May be the 3 series is considered a bottom line BMW (not M3 of course and 328i) strictly in nomenclature, but the 5 is not considered a low end car by any means of imagination. The 5 series (specifically 528i), comes with practically nothing standard. Pretty pathetic I say! The list of options on the 528i is a page or two long! By the time you get most of your options on this car you need, you are looking at around $48-50K just for a 528i and not even the 540i, which takes you right into the GS400 teritory. Now for $48,000, would you seriously pass up on the sweet engine of the GS400 at 300 HP (ugly exterior though, IMHO) and get a 193 HP of the 528i instead? As much as I LOVE BMW's, I think I will consider an alternative for a $48,000 car with a 2.8L engine and 193 HP's. Wouldn't you? <p>Call it strange, weird, or whatever you want to call my point of view Bruce, but I still think BMW<br>is "greedy" car company who makes great engineered automobiles with lots and lots of dealers and owners laughing all the way to the bank with our hard-earned cash spent on such "luxury" items charges as options as single CD players, moonroofs, folding seats, leather, wood, alloy wheels, and even a freakin armrest on their $27,000-$42,000 cars. <p>I have a right to criticize this car company just as much you have a right to criticize my post about it.<p>Take care and I did not take yours as a flame at all. I really enjoy your point of view in your posts and I like what you have to say on a lot of topics.<p>Take Care.<p>Alex B.<p>P.S.: Can you believe Bruce that the BMW 323i that Patrick, myself, Jeff, and a few other guys are getting with the Sport package does NOT come with an armrest? I check with the dealer and it will cost around $400-$500 to put one in. How ridiculous does that sound to you? AN ARMREST OPTIONAL ON A CAR OF THIS PRICE AND CLASS? Unbelievable!<p>

Alex B.
10-25-1998, 07:25 AM
the lack of interior room, cheap dashboard, lack or rear leg room, and small trunk made me wait for the E46. I really like your E36, but it is just a little too compact for me. <p>BTW, you are right, you do not flame, you just slightly burn me with a match sometimes! Just kidding!<p>Have a nice weekend.<p>:-)<p>Alex B.

Alex B.
10-25-1998, 07:40 AM
of 4 spoke=3 spoke a few days ago, you surely can hold a secret and not tell her about PC correct instead of PC(wrong, I know, a typo).<p>I think for a change your message this time had no big flames, but just a little few tiny ones so I will respond promptly to your points.<p>If what you say is true about German metallic paints being superior to Japanese ones, I will gladly pay for it. It indeed the case, the $475 is reasonable for a great paint quality.<p>I can afford a 328i instead of the 323i I ordered, but I rather put my money into my wedding in a year or so, than to spend extra $4000 to $6000 shaving 0.5 seconds off my 0-60 times, braking 5 feet shorter, have my rear-view mirror tilt, or having to adjust my seats electrically instead of manually. The 323i indeed, is the bargain here, not the 328i. But I really wish I did not have to pay for my silver paint, folding seats, leather, CD, and moonroof, so I could easily upgrade my wheels to 328i Sport wheels, and still save enough money for a trip for my honeymoon to Europe! It is not the point that I should not buy my 323i because I am getting jipped by BMW. It just chaps my hide when I could have used that same money I paid on my options (not in my opinion) for a much better use and still get the same car.<p>I am guessing that at this time, you may be interested in actually conversing to some degree instead of only flaming me? If so, your response is certainly welcome. And if not, not a problem at all.<p>Respectfully,<p>Alex B.<p>

knowitall
10-25-1998, 11:12 AM
It's apples and oranges. Where are the TL's side airbags? (Not avaialable.) Head Protection System? (Not available.) 4-wheel ventilated discs? (Not available.) Five-speed manual? (Not available.) Traction control? (Not available.) These and many more substantive rather than fluffy features are standard on the $26,970 323i -- nevermind the subjective things that make a BMW so much more pleasurable to drive and own over the long run.

Roger
10-25-1998, 01:20 PM
<br>: It's apples and oranges. Where are the TL's side airbags? (Not avaialable.) Head Protection System? (Not available.) 4-wheel ventilated discs? (Not available.) Five-speed manual? (Not available.) Traction control? (Not available.) These and many more substantive rather than fluffy features are standard on the $26,970 323i -- nevermind the subjective things that make a BMW so much more pleasurable to drive and own over the long run.<p>The 3.2 comes standard with 4 wheel disc brakes, but only the front ones are ventilated. By the way, traction control is standard in the 3.2, as is 16 inch aluminum wheels that actually look good. Heated seats are standard, as are hand chosen leather seats and trim. No, a manual is not availible, but it is a sport-shift automatic like in the Prelude VTEC. I have driven my GS-R for nearly 6 years without even visiting the dealership once expect for scheduled maintenance. However, I am not trying to endorese the 3.2. I am likely going to buy an E-46, nonetheless. The only reason for the comments on the subject was to demonstrate that BMW is not the most generous car manufacturer out there. Indeed they build great cars, but how many complaints do you read on this post about stupid little (or big) things going wrong with someone's BMW and the dealer being a real *** about doing something about it? My best friend's Dad leased a new 740 in March and it has been in the shop for bizarre mechanical and electrical repairs for a total of 45-55 days, and they can't even fix it. Rather than honor the lemon laws and refund his money right out and take the car, they want him to pay the full value of the monthly payments from March until now and then NEGOTIATE a settlement based upon a buyback price that is heavily weighed in BMW's favor. Acura is not so arrogant.<p>

andy r.
10-25-1998, 06:11 PM
<i>: The third link is a great feature -- negative camber under roll is exactly what you want. But you say that it's unchanged from the old G. Are you saying that the old G also had the third link? I was under the impression that the third link was a new for 99 thing... --Andi<br></i><p>No sir. Trust me, I have one and I've played with it plenty (playing with bushings, clutch replacement, etc). It's had the same suspension since 1991 (different spring rates on some model-years). It's actually adapted from the '90 (?) 300ZX. <p>andy r.<br>93 g20

Andi
10-25-1998, 08:25 PM
Andy, you're right and I'm wrong. I found the <a href="http://www.se-r.net/about/99_g20/scc/oct98/tb.html">Sport Compact Car Article</a> at <a href="http://www.se-r.net/">SE-R.net</a> and it says this multilink front suspension was indeed used on the old G. <p>This perplexes me though... why the hell didn't Nissan use this superior setup on the front suspension of the Maxima and I30 then? <p>Well we're probably starting to annoy the Von Bimmerheads with this thread on the BMW board... if you want to continue this discussion, let's do it on the Maxima message board that I run. <a href="http://www-cse.uta.edu/~andi/maxima/bbs/">Click here to goto my Maxima Message Board.</a> <p>Regards, --Andi<p><i>: : The third link is a great feature -- negative camber under roll is exactly what you want. But you say that it's unchanged from the old G. Are you saying that the old G also had the third link? I was under the impression that the third link was a new for 99 thing... --Andi<p>: No sir. Trust me, I have one and I've played with it plenty (playing with bushings, clutch replacement, etc). It's had the same suspension since 1991 (different spring rates on some model-years). It's actually adapted from the '90 (?) 300ZX. <p>: andy r.<br>: 93 g20<p></i>

knowitall
10-26-1998, 09:07 AM
The TL has a limited slip, not traction control.

Ali B
10-26-1998, 06:38 PM
Just kidding! I think Alex has some valid points, but some of his expectations are too high. I think the 323i should come with some kind of alloy wheels (perhaps the 15" ones that come with the cheaper 323i Premium Package). Even the less expensive Audi A4 1.8T comes with 15" alloys and 205-series tires, not to mention no-charge metallic paint. Moonroof and CD player are not usually standard on European cars in this price range. Moonroof is made optional in part because some tall people may need the extra inch or so of headroom that you lose with the moonroof or sunroof. The main reason, of course, is to keep the base price lower. Metallic paint, folding rear seats and wood trim are items that the Audi A4 2.8 gives you at no charge. <p>In conclusion, I think BMW could give its customers a little more value, but that will only come about because of market forces. As long as people are willing to pay a premium for the superior performance, ride and handling that a BMW offers, don't hold much hope. In the meantime, enjoy the car that you have chosen and dwell on the positive aspects of the car.

Chris
10-26-1998, 08:08 PM
<br>: The TL has a limited slip, not traction control.<p>Why don't you read about the 3.2. It is traction control. Are you really looking at a 1999 TL or are you looking at the yestertech 1998?

Will Oelke
10-26-1998, 08:51 PM
I have not found any of the jap cars lusty; the hot little silver cars from Munich on the other hand....yea,lust! Even you could get laid if you had an M5.

Alex B.
10-26-1998, 10:52 PM
Get a new name Mr. K.

Beavis
10-26-1998, 11:56 PM
<br>: Get a new name Mr. K.<p><br>Perhaps he just isn't versed in the literary arts.<br>


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