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Jon
01-25-1999, 01:01 PM
Sorry if this is off the subject...<p>My mom likes my 328 but I'm trying to dissuade her from spending so much money. Any of you guys/gals thought about *way* cheaper alternatives to your E46s?<p>I checked out a '99 Jetta, and sheez, the interior is<br>strikingly like an E46, esp. the dashboard - exteriorwise the door handles are also similar. And the way the body panels fit together even seems tighter than my own E46. Overall design, including subtle touches like the ceiling handgrips that decelerate when you let go, the dual lighted vanity mirrors, and the overall build quality equals or betters the E46. <p>So I think the Jetta would be perfect for those liking the E46 but would like to spend less and could do with out the power and handling. The best part is that it's roughly half the price. Comments? Or are there other alternatives?

Tom
01-25-1999, 01:06 PM
<i>: Sorry if this is off the subject...<p>: My mom likes my 328 but I'm trying to dissuade her from spending so much money. Any of you guys/gals thought about *way* cheaper alternatives to your E46s?<p>: I checked out a '99 Jetta, and sheez, the interior is<br>: strikingly like an E46, esp. the dashboard - exteriorwise the door handles are also similar. And the way the body panels fit together even seems tighter than my own E46. Overall design, including subtle touches like the ceiling handgrips that decelerate when you let go, the dual lighted vanity mirrors, and the overall build quality equals or betters the E46. <p>: So I think the Jetta would be perfect for those liking the E46 but would like to spend less and could do with out the power and handling. The best part is that it's roughly half the price. Comments? Or are there other alternatives?<p></i> : please do not compare a BMW with a Jetta anymore. It's really hurting listening to such things... A BMW is something completely different than many cars, (almost) all is perfectly thought and well produced. Thank you for not hurting BMW.

Steve
01-25-1999, 01:08 PM
<i>: Sorry if this is off the subject...<p>: My mom likes my 328 but I'm trying to dissuade her from spending so much money. Any of you guys/gals thought about *way* cheaper alternatives to your E46s?<p>: I checked out a '99 Jetta, and sheez, the interior is<br>: strikingly like an E46, esp. the dashboard - exteriorwise the door handles are also similar. And the way the body panels fit together even seems tighter than my own E46. Overall design, including subtle touches like the ceiling handgrips that decelerate when you let go, the dual lighted vanity mirrors, and the overall build quality equals or betters the E46. <p>: So I think the Jetta would be perfect for those liking the E46 but would like to spend less and could do with out the power and handling. The best part is that it's roughly half the price. Comments? Or are there other alternatives?<p><br></i>

BM-deW
01-25-1999, 01:09 PM
<i>: Sorry if this is off the subject...<p>: My mom likes my 328 but I'm trying to dissuade her from spending so much money. Any of you guys/gals thought about *way* cheaper alternatives to your E46s?<p>: I checked out a '99 Jetta, and sheez, the interior is<br>: strikingly like an E46, esp. the dashboard - exteriorwise the door handles are also similar. And the way the body panels fit together even seems tighter than my own E46. Overall design, including subtle touches like the ceiling handgrips that decelerate when you let go, the dual lighted vanity mirrors, and the overall build quality equals or betters the E46. <p>: So I think the Jetta would be perfect for those liking the E46 but would like to spend less and could do with out the power and handling. The best part is that it's roughly half the price. Comments? Or are there other alternatives?<p></i>

Gilbert
01-25-1999, 01:29 PM
If she's looking at VW then the Passat is more comparable. (Plus there is no rear leg room in the Jetta.) I think the best alternative for a lesser expensive vehicle is the A4 1.8T. Base MSRP is around 24,000. (Of course, base MSRP for the 323 is a few grand more.)

Ali B
01-25-1999, 02:39 PM
Before you guys jump all over me, let me say that I don't think the Jetta is as good a car as an E46. There is no comparison in terms of body design, handling, prestige, etc. etc. <p>I do think that the build quality of the new VW's are very good, perhaps close to Audi and BMW. I have not driven the new 174-hp VR6 engine, but from my two test drives of the 323i, I could honestly say that the old 172-hp VW VR6 engine feels more potent that the BMW 2.5 engine. Also, the new Jetta is at leat 150 lb lighter than a 323i. With a few more horses and same torque available at lower rpm (181 lb-ft @ 3200 rpm, 85% of max torque available from 2000-6000 rpm), the new Jetta will be just as quick as the 323i.<p>Frankly, I found the performance difference between the 323i and 328i to be rather significant (more like 30-40 hp based on gut feeling). I think the 323i is a good notch below the A4 2.8 and a couple of notches below the 328i in terms of power.<p>By taking price into consideration, I would get a VR6 Jetta before plucking down money for a 323i. Just my opinion. No flames please. I repeat: I am not saying that the V6 Jetta is a better car than the 323i; it is just a better buy!

Ino
01-25-1999, 02:39 PM
That is a sweet engine cranking 169-171 hps but the engineering in general is horrible. <p>Stay away from VWs despite their recent projects with Audi. I have spoken to too many VR6 owners from Corrados to GTI to Jetta and the word is out.<p>Ino

arnold
01-25-1999, 02:50 PM
My experience with VW (from driving my friends' 86 Scirocco, 92 Jetta and 96 Jetta) is that these three different cars had consistent problems with rattles especially the dashboard pieces. As you can see three different cars, and production years but same problem.<p>My friends 96 develop the rattles after 1 yr and half of driving.<p>I don't know if VW has fixed this problem or not in the 99 Jetta's?<p>arnold

Steve
01-25-1999, 03:09 PM
<i>: My experience with VW (from driving my friends' 86 Scirocco, 92 Jetta and 96 Jetta) is that these three different cars had consistent problems with rattles especially the dashboard pieces. As you can see three different cars, and production years but same problem.<p>: My friends 96 develop the rattles after 1 yr and half of driving.<p>: I don't know if VW has fixed this problem or not in the 99 Jetta's?<p>: arnold<p></i>

ding to get a 328)
01-25-1999, 03:38 PM
no message

Juan
01-25-1999, 04:05 PM
my Mexican-built Jetta GLX was one of the most trouble-free cars I ever owned.<p><i>: : My experience with VW (from driving my friends' 86 Scirocco, 92 Jetta and 96 Jetta) is that these three different cars had consistent problems with rattles especially the dashboard pieces. As you can see three different cars, and production years but same problem.<p>: : My friends 96 develop the rattles after 1 yr and half of driving.<p>: : I don't know if VW has fixed this problem or not in the 99 Jetta's?<p>: : arnold<p></i>

Bimmer Dude
01-25-1999, 04:11 PM
<i>: Sorry if this is off the subject...<p>: My mom likes my 328 but I'm trying to dissuade her from spending so much money. Any of you guys/gals thought about *way* cheaper alternatives to your E46s?<p>: I checked out a '99 Jetta, and sheez, the interior is<br>: strikingly like an E46, esp. the dashboard - exteriorwise the door handles are also similar. And the way the body panels fit together even seems tighter than my own E46. Overall design, including subtle touches like the ceiling handgrips that decelerate when you let go, the dual lighted vanity mirrors, and the overall build quality equals or betters the E46. <p>: So I think the Jetta would be perfect for those liking the E46 but would like to spend less and could do with out the power and handling. The best part is that it's roughly half the price. Comments? Or are there other alternatives?<p></i>

spons
01-25-1999, 04:11 PM
: The best part is that it's roughly half the price. Comments? Or are there other alternatives?<p>Check out the posts at www.vwvortex.com. The new Jettas are not available yet with the VR6. Nobody knows when they will actually get here. When they do arrive (some time in the next six months?), VW dealers will certainly be getting the sticker price of $23,500 PLUS for the GLX. A comparable 328i (with premium package, heated seats, metallic paint, fold-down rear seat, dest'n) would sticker for about $38,500. For half of this, you *could* own a base Jetta GL with 115 hp, manual windows, plastic wheel covers and no cruise control.<br>

Steve
01-25-1999, 04:37 PM
<i>: my Mexican-built Jetta GLX was one of the most trouble-free cars I ever owned.<p>: : : My experience with VW (from driving my friends' 86 Scirocco, 92 Jetta and 96 Jetta) is that these three different cars had consistent problems with rattles especially the dashboard pieces. As you can see three different cars, and production years but same problem.<p>: : : My friends 96 develop the rattles after 1 yr and half of driving.<p>: : : I don't know if VW has fixed this problem or not in the 99 Jetta's?<p>: : : arnold<p></i>

Aaron Stoddard
01-25-1999, 05:05 PM
I dont think it is fair to attribute the quality of a product solely to the nationality of the people who build it. Honda, Toyota, and Nissan all build reliable cars using US labor. Doesnt some of the blame lie on the management of the company as well? The reason the Puebla plant shut down in '93 is because the workers struck for higher wages. VW then hired replacements and lost a year of Jetta and Golf production. Another quite interesting thing is that last year Puebla almost shut down again because of a strike, but VW gave in because they didnt want to lose Beetle production at the only place in the world they are made.

Alex
01-25-1999, 08:32 PM
OK, no flames for you Ali, but just to let you know, VW's are exactly that. VW's. Not in the same league as a BMW 46. There are lots of cars out there with stronger engines for less money than the 323i, but none with the all around balance, quality, prestige, solid-feel, to mention tons of others that stack up with a 323i for the money. A friend of mine just bought a Camary 4 cylinder for $24K. For $5K more, you can a 323i with a couple of options.<p>Yes, you can also get a Mustang or Camaro with a V8 for less than a 323i. It is not all about 0-60 Ali. It is about how a car manages to do all the great things the E46 323i (and of course the 328i) does, and costs less than a ES300, Infiniti I30, Mazda Millenia, Volvo S70, and Saab 9-3.<p>I take the BMW 323i in a heartbeat over any VW, Audi A4, Acura TL, I30, or ES300. You have to own one to know. I did own a VW before as you know (you former car!) and the build quality was, how shall we say, subpar. <p>VW's and Audi's are nice cars, but not in the same calibur as a BMW. Mercedes and BMW are a cut above the VW company which is on par with Toyota, Nissan, and Honda. Not the same my brother!<p>Alex <br>1999 323i sport<br>titanium silv/grey<p>PS: I did not flame you as you see. I just made you realize that you do not compare apples with oranges!!! :-)

Randy S
01-25-1999, 08:35 PM
<i>: Sorry if this is off the subject...<p>: My mom likes my 328 but I'm trying to dissuade her from spending so much money. Any of you guys/gals thought about *way* cheaper alternatives to your E46s?<p>: I checked out a '99 Jetta, and sheez, the interior is<br>: strikingly like an E46, esp. the dashboard - exteriorwise the door handles are also similar. And the way the body panels fit together even seems tighter than my own E46. Overall design, including subtle touches like the ceiling handgrips that decelerate when you let go, the dual lighted vanity mirrors, and the overall build quality equals or betters the E46. <p>: So I think the Jetta would be perfect for those liking the E46 but would like to spend less and could do with out the power and handling. The best part is that it's roughly half the price. Comments? Or are there other alternatives?<p></i>

Alex
01-25-1999, 09:10 PM
<i>: That is a sweet engine cranking 169-171 hps but the engineering in general is horrible. <p>: Stay away from VWs despite their recent projects with Audi. I have spoken to too many VR6 owners from Corrados to GTI to Jetta and the word is out.<p>: Ino<p></i>

Ali B
01-25-1999, 09:19 PM
<br>

Throw the eggs here.
01-25-1999, 10:29 PM
You are right. The '99 Jetta (available now with the VR6, just not yet the wood trim GLX) is a much better value. I got a good deal on my '99 328i (invoice+$1400), then a great trade for my '98 jetta ($17k with 30k miles). I paid $20,450 for the jetta last year, put 30k on it and sold it for $17k. That's a little over 10 cents/mile for the first year ownership of a fast, fun car with very good design. The '99 Jetta is better, rolls less in hard driving than the '98. Sure, they will want $23.5 for new GLX's, so get the GL (or whatever) with the VR6 and have fun.<br>Why did I buy the '99 328i? Because it is a better car, not a better value.

Steve
01-25-1999, 10:38 PM
<i>: I dont think it is fair to attribute the quality of a product solely to the nationality of the people who build it. Honda, Toyota, and Nissan all build reliable cars using US labor. Doesnt some of the blame lie on the management of the company as well? The reason the Puebla plant shut down in '93 is because the workers struck for higher wages. VW then hired replacements and lost a year of Jetta and Golf production. Another quite interesting thing is that last year Puebla almost shut down again because of a strike, but VW gave in because they didnt want to lose Beetle production at the only place in the world they are made.<p></i>

Aaron Stoddard
01-25-1999, 11:54 PM
VW almost went out of business because they chose the absolute most short sighted route of locating a plant in a place where they could pay the lowest dirt wages and pollute freely. Then, when the workers tried to at least obtain a living wage, VW fired them all. Workers are disposable, right? Imagine that they had quality problems...

Aaron Stoddard
01-25-1999, 11:54 PM
VW almost went out of business because they chose the absolute most short sighted route of locating a plant in a place where they could pay the lowest dirt wages and pollute freely. Then, when the workers tried to at least obtain a living wage, VW fired them all. Workers are disposable, right? Imagine that they had quality problems...

Steve
01-26-1999, 02:51 PM
I really don't give two hoots about what the company did to make poor quality cars--it's like crying over spilt-milk. I'm talking about building cars correctly and how well that job is done. I'm not getting personal here. Take the emotion out of it. If you have a thing about me saying "Mexican manuafaturing" and you understand what I meant without ME actually saying more--end of story.<p>Steve<p><br><i>: VW almost went out of business because they chose the absolute most short sighted route of locating a plant in a place where they could pay the lowest dirt wages and pollute freely. Then, when the workers tried to at least obtain a living wage, VW fired them all. Workers are disposable, right? Imagine that they had quality problems...<p></i>

FS
01-26-1999, 04:26 PM
<i>: OK, no flames for you Ali, but just to let you know, VW's are exactly that. VW's. Not in the same league as a BMW 46. There are lots of cars out there with stronger engines for less money than the 323i, but none with the all around balance, quality, prestige, solid-feel, to mention tons of others that stack up with a 323i for the money. A friend of mine just bought a Camary 4 cylinder for $24K. For $5K more, you can a 323i with a couple of options.<p>: Yes, you can also get a Mustang or Camaro with a V8 for less than a 323i. It is not all about 0-60 Ali. It is about how a car manages to do all the great things the E46 323i (and of course the 328i) does, and costs less than a ES300, Infiniti I30, Mazda Millenia, Volvo S70, and Saab 9-3.<p>: I take the BMW 323i in a heartbeat over any VW, Audi A4, Acura TL, I30, or ES300. You have to own one to know. I did own a VW before as you know (you former car!) and the build quality was, how shall we say, subpar. <p>: VW's and Audi's are nice cars, but not in the same calibur as a BMW. Mercedes and BMW are a cut above the VW company which is on par with Toyota, Nissan, and Honda. Not the same my brother!<p>: Alex <br>: 1999 323i sport<br>: titanium silv/grey<p>: PS: I did not flame you as you see. I just made you realize that you do not compare apples with oranges!!! :-)<p></i>

Lindt
01-28-1999, 07:40 PM
See <a href="http://www.acura.com/comparison/int/sr-int-comp-resultframe.asp">Integra comparison</a>. Not a bad deal really, and the Integra actually does better than the 323i in <i>their</i> (Acura's) key categories.<p><i>: Sorry if this is off the subject...<p>: My mom likes my 328 but I'm trying to dissuade her from spending so much money. Any of you guys/gals thought about *way* cheaper alternatives to your E46s?<p>: I checked out a '99 Jetta, and sheez, the interior is<br>: strikingly like an E46, esp. the dashboard - exteriorwise the door handles are also similar. And the way the body panels fit together even seems tighter than my own E46. Overall design, including subtle touches like the ceiling handgrips that decelerate when you let go, the dual lighted vanity mirrors, and the overall build quality equals or betters the E46. <p>: So I think the Jetta would be perfect for those liking the E46 but would like to spend less and could do with out the power and handling. The best part is that it's roughly half the price. Comments? Or are there other alternatives?<p></i>


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