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rand
09-19-1999, 11:50 PM
<i><br></i>will the e46 have SMG trans? or 6-speed?

Bruce
09-20-1999, 12:09 AM
<i>:will the e46 have SMG trans? or 6-speed?</i><p>6 speed for sure, my sources indicate SMG for the US is doubtful

Magic Eight Ball? Grasshopper...
09-20-1999, 01:32 AM
<i>: :will the e46 have SMG trans? or 6-speed?<p>: 6 speed for sure, my sources indicate SMG for the US is doubtful<p></i>

Pete
09-20-1999, 04:32 AM
News here in Europe say it will have the SMG with peddals behind the steering wheel

Bruce
09-20-1999, 08:06 AM
between a WAG an repeating what I have been told by people inside BMW<p>believe me if you want or I can say "I told you so" down the road

Bryan
09-20-1999, 08:21 PM
<i>: <br>: will the e46 have SMG trans? or 6-speed?<p></i>

Den
09-21-1999, 01:31 AM
They can keep the E46 if they don't bring over the<p>Sequential Manual Gearbox.<p>Clutchless, pushbutton up/down shifting like F1 cars.

robbo
09-21-1999, 04:04 AM
<i>: They can keep the E46 if they don't bring over the<p>: Sequential Manual Gearbox.<p>: Clutchless, pushbutton up/down shifting like F1 cars.<p></i>

Rick Key
09-21-1999, 10:24 AM
<i>: They can keep the E46 if they don't bring over the<p>: Sequential Manual Gearbox.<p>: Clutchless, pushbutton up/down shifting like F1 cars.<p></i> A German friend of mine with a 98 Euro M3 SMG liked his 95 5sp trans better. Also from everything I have read to date the SMG transmission is not as great as it is made out to be. Almost every Brit and German Car mag I have read that had extensive tests of the M3 equipped with the SMG were less than impressed by it. So far I have not seen anything other than tech analysis and "short takes" in US auto pubs where it is made out to be manna from heaven. However I must admit I have not driven one! But so far the Brit magazines seem to be pretty objective when evaluating cars (except British cars) unlike most US magazines where even the Chevy Malibu is a great car LOL.<p>Rick Key<br>95 ///M3 JimC ///Motivated

Pete
09-21-1999, 10:55 AM
SMG stands for Sequential "M" Getriebe<br>Getriebe = Gears<br>This is already an option with the Euro M3 E36.<br>No more clutch peddal. Just a small stick to sequentially shift from 1 through 6. However cannot be compared with the "Steptronic" available in other bimmers with an automatic transmission as there is no torque or RPM equalizer, or whatever you call the damn thing making the automatic shifts so smooth. The whole thing sort of works like the gears on a Formula one car.

Pete
09-21-1999, 11:07 AM
I wouldn't change it for anything. I grabbed every magazine with an article on it and it's true that an number of them don't find it too great a thing and then again other's do praise it quite high.<p>For one thing, it's not a car you can jump in and totally enjoy it from the first minute. It took me a couple of weeks to really get it to work as smooth and fluent as I want it. And I'm from Europe where we grow up with manual gears. So I guess if these reporters pick up there test car and scream out of the dealer's lot and write their report within the next half day, I assure you they don't get the full performance an feel out of that SMG box.<p>But once you get the hang of it, there is nothing nicer than to take it for a serious drive and work that damn little shifter...<p><br>: A German friend of mine with a 98 Euro M3 SMG liked his 95 5sp trans better. Also from everything I have read to date the SMG transmission is not as great as it is made out to be. Almost every Brit and German Car mag I have read that had extensive tests of the M3 equipped with the SMG were less than impressed by it. So far I have not seen anything other than tech analysis and "short takes" in US auto pubs where it is made out to be manna from heaven. However I must admit I have not driven one! But so far the Brit magazines seem to be pretty objective when evaluating cars (except British cars) unlike most US magazines where even the Chevy Malibu is a great car LOL.<p>: Rick Key<br>: 95 ///M3 JimC ///Motivated<p></i><p>

Pete
09-21-1999, 11:09 AM
Reports over here say that the new M3 will have peddals behind the wheel to pull with your fingers, just like F1.<br>Together with an improved software compared to the current SMG.

Alex
09-21-1999, 02:16 PM
okay, let me get this straight. It is pretty much like steprtonic trans, but with not torque equalizer? I do not quite understand how this works. I mean when you drive a good old manual you usually do not always let go of the clutch right away, but rather slowly to make it more smooth, right? You can not do that with a button, right? Please explain...

Bruce
09-21-1999, 03:17 PM
<i>: okay, let me get this straight. It is pretty much like steprtonic trans, but with not torque equalizer? I do not quite understand how this works. I mean when you drive a good old manual you usually do not always let go of the clutch right away, but rather slowly to make it more smooth, right? You can not do that with a button, right? Please explain...</i><p>and SMG is a true manual transmission (the clutch is computer controlled). the steptronic (or in Porsche lingo, tiptronic) is a true automatic transmission with a torque convertor

Alex
09-21-1999, 05:54 PM
: and SMG is a true manual transmission (the clutch is computer controlled). the steptronic (or in Porsche lingo, tiptronic) is a true automatic transmission with a torque convertor<p></i><br>but then would manual clutch and a stick shift would really be a "true manual"? <br>And how different is it for the driver? I have driven stertronc bimmers before and it was not nearly as much fun as a regular manual. It gave a lot less control of what's going on. How is SMG different from that? What exactly is changed by the lack of the torque converter? Does it give the same control of the car?

Bruce
09-21-1999, 07:38 PM
<i>: but then would manual clutch and a stick shift would really be a "true manual"? <br>: And how different is it for the driver? I have driven stertronc bimmers before and it was not nearly as much fun as a regular manual. It gave a lot less control of what's going on. How is SMG different from that? What exactly is changed by the lack of the torque converter? Does it give the same control of the car?</i><p>not to make this sound bad....you need to find a page that talks about the diff between manual transmissions and automatic transmissions, then you will understand the diff and why the SMG is cool :-)

Pete
09-22-1999, 01:07 AM
This gives 100% control of what's going on. Once you are in a gear you are in it, just like in a regular manual. More RPM means directly more speed and not like with an automatic a converter that firstly brings more noise and once it manages the weight accelerates. Also there is no kick-down as with an automatic.<p>Like I said, once you are in a gear everything goes directly to the wheels just like manual.<br>Only difference when you shift, the computer engages and disengages the clutch and it even controls the throttle for a split second to match RPMs between the gears that you shift.<p>It's kind of hard to explain, but I drive one every day and I love it

Gilbert
09-22-1999, 08:26 AM
In driver's operation--the difference is that the computer does the clutching for you. No need to time your left foot with your right hand etc. 'Perfect' shifts every time. (allows left foot braking) It gives same control of car as manual. It's not so much what is changed by lack of converter...because like other manual transmissions it doesn't have a converter. Hence it benefits in the same ways 'regular' manual transmissions benefit from lack of torque converter. (ie: more power to rear wheels)

Richard Peterson
09-22-1999, 05:53 PM
<i>: : but then would manual clutch and a stick shift would really be a "true manual"? <br>: : And how different is it for the driver? I have driven stertronc bimmers before and it was not nearly as much fun as a regular manual. It gave a lot less control of what's going on. How is SMG different from that? What exactly is changed by the lack of the torque converter? Does it give the same control of the car?<p>I'll try to give you a quick overview of the torque converter. Imagine placing two common house fans face to face. When you turn one on, the other will begin rotating because of the blowing air reacting to blades on the other fan. Notice that the second fan does not spin as fast as the fan that is powered, this is the concept of "slippage". Now imagine these fans made in a housing, with many more blades and the air replaced with transmission fluid. The more viscious fluid will transmit the rotation from the engine to the trasmission much faster than the air, but there is still slippage occuring. Once the transmission catches up to the engine the slippage is minimal. This slippage is what makes the automatic transmission feel so smooth, but it also loses power, therefore less gas milege. Picture a torque converter that has a slippage of 5% (I'm not sure of the typical values) with an engine output of 300 HP, you lose 15 hp through the transmission. In defense, torque converters are availabe that "lock-up" after a certian RPM is reached.<p>In contrast, with a manual transmission the clutch is in direct contact with the flywheel. And unless the clutch is not designed with the correct surface area and pressure for the application, there is no slippage once the clutch pedal is fully released. So, as someone said before, all of the power is transmitted to the rear wheels.<p>The SMG provides the all of the power through the use of a conventional clutch, but the convience of a automatic transmission through the computer actuated clutch and engine RPM syncronization. There was a good article in the BIMMER magazine a few months ago describing the SMG. (If you want the exact issue, I can find it). The SMG can be shifted, currently with a stick up or down through each gear one after the other. (Picture a video game, where you must go from first, to second, to third with the push of a button, without the option of going from first to third)(Also used in Formula one Racing) The new reports say the gear stick will be removed and replaced with paddles or buttons on the steering wheel, one shifts up, the other shifts down. But there is also the option to put it in an automatic mode and just drive it like an automatic. (At least that is what the article says). Pretty much providing you with the best of both worlds. Fun driving when it is needed and automatic shifts when you are eating or relaxing.<p>Hope this helps.

Pete
09-23-1999, 01:52 AM
Couldn't have said it better...<p>Only little correction regarding this point:<p>"without the option of going from first to third"<p>You actually can skip one gear by quickly pushing the stick twice. It's a usefull feature if you sort of roll towards a curve in 5 or 6 and just quickly press it twice to downshift 2 gears and give you some engine break.<p>

SMG
09-23-1999, 12:40 PM
<i>: : : but then would manual clutch and a stick shift would really be a "true manual"? <br>: : : And how different is it for the driver? I have driven stertronc bimmers before and it was not nearly as much fun as a regular manual. It gave a lot less control of what's going on. How is SMG different from that? What exactly is changed by the lack of the torque converter? Does it give the same control of the car?<p>: I'll try to give you a quick overview of the torque converter. Imagine placing two common house fans face to face. When you turn one on, the other will begin rotating because of the blowing air reacting to blades on the other fan. Notice that the second fan does not spin as fast as the fan that is powered, this is the concept of "slippage". Now imagine these fans made in a housing, with many more blades and the air replaced with transmission fluid. The more viscious fluid will transmit the rotation from the engine to the trasmission much faster than the air, but there is still slippage occuring. Once the transmission catches up to the engine the slippage is minimal. This slippage is what makes the automatic transmission feel so smooth, but it also loses power, therefore less gas milege. Picture a torque converter that has a slippage of 5% (I'm not sure of the typical values) with an engine output of 300 HP, you lose 15 hp through the transmission. In defense, torque converters are availabe that "lock-up" after a certian RPM is reached.<p>: In contrast, with a manual transmission the clutch is in direct contact with the flywheel. And unless the clutch is not designed with the correct surface area and pressure for the application, there is no slippage once the clutch pedal is fully released. So, as someone said before, all of the power is transmitted to the rear wheels.<p>: The SMG provides the all of the power through the use of a conventional clutch, but the convience of a automatic transmission through the computer actuated clutch and engine RPM syncronization. There was a good article in the BIMMER magazine a few months ago describing the SMG. (If you want the exact issue, I can find it). The SMG can be shifted, currently with a stick up or down through each gear one after the other. (Picture a video game, where you must go from first, to second, to third with the push of a button, without the option of going from first to third)(Also used in Formula one Racing) The new reports say the gear stick will be removed and replaced with paddles or buttons on the steering wheel, one shifts up, the other shifts down. But there is also the option to put it in an automatic mode and just drive it like an automatic. (At least that is what the article says). Pretty much providing you with the best of both worlds. Fun driving when it is needed and automatic shifts when you are eating or relaxing.<p>: Hope this helps. <br>It helps a lot - thanks!<br>However, what exactly stopped them from doing it like this from the very beginning? Just the fact that it's harder to drive or something? Or that it's more expencive?<br></i>

Gilbert
09-23-1999, 12:54 PM
Cost to buyer would be more. BUT BMW would have to certify that engine/transmission configuration for the US. (I heard somewhere that it's over $1M per drivetrain config.) I also read (perhaps in the Roundel) that BMW doesn't think that 'mericans have a high interest in the SMG.

Bruce
09-23-1999, 02:10 PM
<i>: Cost to buyer would be more. BUT BMW would have to certify that engine/transmission configuration for the US. (I heard somewhere that it's over $1M per drivetrain config.) I also read (perhaps in the Roundel) that BMW doesn't think that 'mericans have a high interest in the SMG.<br></i><p>I have heard the cost of the option in Europe is approx US$4500. If it costs $1M to certify a car (body/engine AND tranny) BMW would have to sell over 220 cars with the SMG to cover just the cost of certifying the car, not even touching the increased R&D and manufacturing costs associated with it.<p>I have heard from somebody at BMW NA that American like to have the clutch and the SMG in the US is VERY doubtful.

Richard Peterson
09-23-1999, 03:44 PM
<i>: : : : but then would manual clutch and a stick shift would really be a "true manual"? <br>: : : : And how different is it for the driver? I have driven stertronc bimmers before and it was not nearly as much fun as a regular manual. It gave a lot less control of what's going on. How is SMG different from that? What exactly is changed by the lack of the torque converter? Does it give the same control of the car?<p><br></i>Can someone that ownes one of these describe the start-off proceedure. If you have no clutch, do you release the stick slowly? If it is going to be a button this is not possible. Which would lead me to the conclusion that the computer does it at a certian RPM. I have yet to see a good explaination in a magazine. Someone give me a description please.

Den
09-23-1999, 08:51 PM
<i>: : Cost to buyer would be more. BUT BMW would have to certify that engine/transmission configuration for the US. (I heard somewhere that it's over $1M per drivetrain config.) I also read (perhaps in the Roundel) that BMW doesn't think that 'mericans have a high interest in the SMG.<p>: I have heard the cost of the option in Europe is approx US$4500. If it costs $1M to certify a car (body/engine AND tranny) BMW would have to sell over 220 cars with the SMG to cover just the cost of certifying the car, not even touching the increased R&D and manufacturing costs associated with it.<p>R&D & manufacturing has already been done for the Euro M3.<p>SMG Article<br>

Den
09-23-1999, 08:54 PM
<i>: : Cost to buyer would be more. BUT BMW would have to certify that engine/transmission configuration for the US. (I heard somewhere that it's over $1M per drivetrain config.) I also read (perhaps in the Roundel) that BMW doesn't think that 'mericans have a high interest in the SMG.<p>: I have heard the cost of the option in Europe is approx US$4500. If it costs $1M to certify a car (body/engine AND tranny) BMW would have to sell over 220 cars with the SMG to cover just the cost of certifying the car, not even touching the increased R&D and manufacturing costs associated with it.<p>R&D & manufacturing has already been done for the Euro M3.<p>SMG Article<p>There are 2 SMG articles on this page.<br>

Den
09-23-1999, 08:57 PM
<i>: : Cost to buyer would be more. BUT BMW would have to certify that engine/transmission configuration for the US. (I heard somewhere that it's over $1M per drivetrain config.) I also read (perhaps in the Roundel) that BMW doesn't think that 'mericans have a high interest in the SMG.<p>: I have heard the cost of the option in Europe is approx US$4500. If it costs $1M to certify a car (body/engine AND tranny) BMW would have to sell over 220 cars with the SMG to cover just the cost of certifying the car, not even touching the increased R&D and manufacturing costs associated with it.<p>R&D & manufacturing has already been done for the Euro M3.<p>SMG Articles<p>There are 2 SMG articles on this page.<br>

Den
09-23-1999, 09:00 PM
<i>: : Cost to buyer would be more. BUT BMW would have to certify that engine/transmission configuration for the US. (I heard somewhere that it's over $1M per drivetrain config.) I also read (perhaps in the Roundel) that BMW doesn't think that 'mericans have a high interest in the SMG.<p>: I have heard the cost of the option in Europe is approx US$4500. If it costs $1M to certify a car (body/engine AND tranny) BMW would have to sell over 220 cars with the SMG to cover just the cost of certifying the car, not even touching the increased R&D and manufacturing costs associated with it.<p>R&D & manufacturing has already been done for the Euro M3.<p>SMG Articles<p>There are 2 SMG articles on this page.<br>

exchange rate used (eom)
09-24-1999, 12:53 AM
<i>: : Cost to buyer would be more. BUT BMW would have to certify that engine/transmission configuration for the US. (I heard somewhere that it's over $1M per drivetrain config.) I also read (perhaps in the Roundel) that BMW doesn't think that 'mericans have a high interest in the SMG.<p>: I have heard the cost of the option in Europe is approx US$4500. If it costs $1M to certify a car (body/engine AND tranny) BMW would have to sell over 220 cars with the SMG to cover just the cost of certifying the car, not even touching the increased R&D and manufacturing costs associated with it.<p>: I have heard from somebody at BMW NA that American like to have the clutch and the SMG in the US is VERY doubtful.<p></i>

Pete
09-24-1999, 01:10 AM
You put it into 1st. Not like an automatic, it stands still without applying the brake. Just like a manual in a gear with the clutch pressed down.<br>You then just go on the accelerator. As the throttle opens it automaticly releases the clutch and it does so perfectly. You can start rolling very gently like an automatic when you let of the break or, if you really step on it, it takes off with a slight but controlled wheel spin.<p>Then if you wanna shift you just quickly pull on the stick and the computer takes back the throttle , disengages the clutch, shifts and engages the clutch again. You can basically rest with your foot on the accelerator, however it makes the shifts smoother once you've gotten used to it, if you just let go of the accelerator a little bit.<p>From the moment you touch the stick till you're in the next gear with the clutch engaged, it is said to take 0,4 seconds.


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