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Wes
09-21-1999, 03:49 PM
I was considering waiting for the E46 M3 but decided that it would not be as easy to drive in the winter. I live in northern Connecticut. The increased traction that Quattro gives was the main selling point of the S4 over the M3. The S4 is also much more stealthy and less attention grabbing than an E46 M3. I like the more low key approach, but that is just me. Anyway, congradulations to everyone who will be getting an E46 M3. It looks like it will be a great car. I will be taking delivery of my silver S4 in 6 weeks. Wes

TJ
09-21-1999, 05:09 PM
Wes - <p>I too live in CT (litchfield county). From where did you purchase the car? I bought an A4 from Valenti in Watertown, and I was not overly impressed with their dealership after the purchase (While CountyLineBMW right next door is outstanding - where I go for my M3). I'm having a tough time deciding between an S4 and waiting for the E46 M3 like yourself. I also was not aware that the S4s were available so soon! What are the available colors? That damn audiusa.com site has next to no information.

Wes
09-21-1999, 05:58 PM
<i>: Wes - <br>I am buying my S4 from Continental Audi in Fairfield. They have treated my extremely well and have answered every question. My S4 is Week 38 production, so I will likely take delivery by the end of October. I will be getting the Silver/Onyx. On thing to remember about the S4 is that it will cost about 10K less than the E46 M3 and it is available now. Actually Continental Audi still has a black/onyx S4 which should be available next week. Send me a message if you have any questions. THanks<p>Wes<br>00 S4 (Silver/Onyx)<br>: I too live in CT (litchfield county). From where did you purchase the car? I bought an A4 from Valenti in Watertown, and I was not overly impressed with their dealership after the purchase (While CountyLineBMW right next door is outstanding - where I go for my M3). I'm having a tough time deciding between an S4 and waiting for the E46 M3 like yourself. I also was not aware that the S4s were available so soon! What are the available colors? That damn audiusa.com site has next to no information.<p></i>

Wes
09-21-1999, 06:00 PM
<i>: Wes - <br>By the way I forgot to mention that I live in Kent, CT.<p>: I too live in CT (litchfield county). From where did you purchase the car? I bought an A4 from Valenti in Watertown, and I was not overly impressed with their dealership after the purchase (While CountyLineBMW right next door is outstanding - where I go for my M3). I'm having a tough time deciding between an S4 and waiting for the E46 M3 like yourself. I also was not aware that the S4s were available so soon! What are the available colors? That damn audiusa.com site has next to no information.<p><br></i>

KJK
09-21-1999, 06:00 PM
<i>: I was considering waiting for the E46 M3 but decided that it would not be as easy to drive in the winter. I live in northern Connecticut. The increased traction that Quattro gives was the main selling point of the S4 over the M3. The S4 is also much more stealthy and less attention grabbing than an E46 M3. I like the more low key approach, but that is just me. Anyway, congradulations to everyone who will be getting an E46 M3. It looks like it will be a great car. I will be taking delivery of my silver S4 in 6 weeks. Wes<p></i>Well, in the first place, you would of had to wait a year for the E46. The S4 sounds nice but it is almost too sedate appearing. It also barely beat the current M3 in a head to head comparison and it should have been significantly better--they had time to make it that way. Given your winter needs it is probably a better choice. It is hard to compare with a car that it is not yet out.<p>

Andrew
09-21-1999, 07:07 PM
<i>: I was considering waiting for the E46 M3 but decided that it would not be as easy to drive in the winter. I live in northern Connecticut. The increased traction that Quattro gives was the main selling point of the S4 over the M3. The S4 is also much more stealthy and less attention grabbing than an E46 M3. I like the more low key approach, but that is just me. Anyway, congradulations to everyone who will be getting an E46 M3. It looks like it will be a great car. I will be taking delivery of my silver S4 in 6 weeks. Wes<p></i>

Wes
09-21-1999, 07:38 PM
<i>: Wes - <br>The colors are Imola Yellow, Nogoro Blue Pearl, Santorin Blue, Arctic Silver, Something Green, Pearl Black, Pearl White and Burgendy Red. <p>: I too live in CT (litchfield county). From where did you purchase the car? I bought an A4 from Valenti in Watertown, and I was not overly impressed with their dealership after the purchase (While CountyLineBMW right next door is outstanding - where I go for my M3). I'm having a tough time deciding between an S4 and waiting for the E46 M3 like yourself. I also was not aware that the S4s were available so soon! What are the available colors? That damn audiusa.com site has next to no information.<p></i>

rickp
09-22-1999, 01:03 AM
<i>: Wes - <p>: I too live in CT (litchfield county). From where did you purchase the car? I bought an A4 from Valenti in Watertown, and I was not overly impressed with their dealership after the purchase (While CountyLineBMW right next door is outstanding - where I go for my M3). I'm having a tough time deciding between an S4 and waiting for the E46 M3 like yourself. I also was not aware that the S4s were available so soon! What are the available colors? That damn audiusa.com site has next to no information.<p></i>

Potential E46 buyer
09-22-1999, 07:58 AM
S4? Its basically a suped up A4 and some parts are color coded. What's the big deal? I think the quattro feature is great but M3's are far more superior still. This is MY OPINION.<p>

KevinH
09-22-1999, 08:30 AM
<i><br></i>

Potential E46 buyer
09-22-1999, 10:49 AM
Correct! But the body is different on the M3 (front & rear bumper, wheels, side vents, dual exhuast pipes, etc) vs. the plain E46. Even the S4 (color coded A4, diff wheels, etc) isn't that much different compared to the A4. Dont get me wrong, I think the S4's are great but its still too rounded. Just my 2 cents.

Jason
09-22-1999, 01:03 PM
I have an E36 M3, and with 205/55/hr16 snow tires on it, i have been able to drive around front wheel drive cars in deep snow.. The car's 50/50 weight distribution makes it immensely easy to handle in snow.. I think that I would have taken other things into consideration besides snow traction in deciding between an S4 and an M3. The M3's perfomance is more racecar like, and the E46 is certain to be in a whole different class acceleration wise.. <br> Remember, even AWD can spin all 4 wheels on ice, and it certainly wont stop you any more quickly... <p>J

P.Kwon
09-23-1999, 11:05 PM
I think you made a good decision. I just bought a 99 328i but think I should've bought an a4 instead and my brother is goin to order an s4 instead of an m3. I think for everyday use the s4/a4 is a better car than the m3/3 series and actually looks better, exterior and interior. And for all of you who haven't experienced the power of all wheel drive, well let me tell you in cornering, and wet, ain't no rear wheel drive gonna beat it. But I will admit that the M3/3 series is definently sportier than the s4/a4 and will out accelerate it anyday, but hey, numbers aren't everything.

Den
09-24-1999, 02:31 AM
for all of you who haven't experienced the power of all wheel drive, well let me tell you in cornering, and wet, ain't no rear wheel drive gonna beat it.<br>__________________________________________________<br>I'll concede the advantage in the wet, but I hear that AWD mucks up steering feel, and as for "cornering" in general...<p>Why is AWD found on roughly 0 race cars? <p>The only high-performance car I can think of that has AWD is the 911 turbo, which I think has AWD mostly for the purpose of transferring all of that power to the road with less wheelspin.<p>And what's that crap on the Audi commercial about the S4(?) being banned from some racing series due to "unfair advantage?"

Zinhead
09-24-1999, 05:56 AM
The steering problem with most production AWD vehicles is that they are based on FWD platforms which have mucked up steering anyway. <p>The Lambo Diablo VT and Porsche C4 are based on rear wheel drive platforms that channel most of the power to the rear in normal traction situations. Nobody accuses these vehicles of haveing mucked up steering. <p>As for the racing series, it was the German Touring Car Championships (Euro equivalent of NASCAR ut they allow technical innovation). Audi and Alfa both competed and won with AWD vehicles which were subsequently banned. <p>As for AWD found on zero race cars, that is because most series regulate the number of driven wheels. That said, practically all modern rally cars are AWD.

Cool-M3
09-24-1999, 09:54 AM
According to 'GT' race drivers in Europe and they should know..."..a rear drive only car is better than a AWD car when cornering on dry surface..., the AWD is better when wet...", of course these are professionals so we might not see the real difference since we are more daily drivers, except on rainy days perhaps !<br>Conclusion: Don't make such comments, educate yourself first. If you are skilled enough you can beat every AWD in a race especially when it comes to cornering...<br>Cool-M3<p><br><i>: I think you made a good decision. I just bought a 99 328i but think I should've bought an a4 instead and my brother is goin to order an s4 instead of an m3. I think for everyday use the s4/a4 is a better car than the m3/3 series and actually looks better, exterior and interior. And for all of you who haven't experienced the power of all wheel drive, well let me tell you in cornering, and wet, ain't no rear wheel drive gonna beat it. But I will admit that the M3/3 series is definently sportier than the s4/a4 and will out accelerate it anyday, but hey, numbers aren't everything.<p></i>

Geza
09-24-1999, 11:45 AM
all FWD cars have "mucked up" steering. As I recall, in the 1986 C&D ten best issue (not that this really means anything), the best steering system award was given to a FWD car. I remember because I owned a '86 Audi Coupe GT (the winner) at that time. <p>Also, I would not call the touring car series the Euro equivalent of NASCAR. The touring cars are 2l 4 cyclinders in production body shells which run exclusively on road coarses. NASCAR isn't remotely related to production cars.<p>As far as AWD road racing, Audi quattros won:<p>1988 Trans Am series (with production bodied Audi 200 sedans racing against tube framed Camaros/Corvettes/Mustangs that had 100 hp more than the Audi) Next year they were banned (AWD)<p>1989 GTO series with Audi 90 quattros<p>1990 thru 1997 turing car series with Audi V8 quattros and A4 quattros (Formula changed during this period to 2L cars) <p>In 1997 won ALL touring car championships (British, German, Italian, Australian, and a couple of more I can't remember) with weight penalties (for AWD) and were still banned for having "an unfair advantage".<p>I beleive Alfa runs FWD cars in the touring car series.<p>Cheers

Den
09-24-1999, 07:38 PM
<i>: all FWD cars have "mucked up" steering. As I recall, in the 1986 C&D ten best issue (not that this really means anything), the best steering system award was given to a FWD car. I remember because I owned a '86 Audi Coupe GT (the winner) at that time. <br></i><p>I don't recall 1986 in particular, but I had a C&D subscription, and I remember the RWD Porsche 944 winning the "Best Handling Car" comparison at least 2 years in the mid 1980's.<p>Is best "steering system" = steering feel/response, or is it an award for engineering excellence.<p>What exactly is the "unfair advantage" of the AWD cars? They'll pull more g's on the track?<p>The M3 won the C&D "Best Handling Car" comparison test in the mid 1990's, and I think it was more for the balanced feel of he car than the number of g's it pulled.

F.S. Audis? (eom) AvusBlue
09-24-1999, 10:31 PM
<i>: all FWD cars have "mucked up" steering. As I recall, in the 1986 C&D ten best issue (not that this really means anything), the best steering system award was given to a FWD car. I remember because I owned a '86 Audi Coupe GT (the winner) at that time. <p>: Also, I would not call the touring car series the Euro equivalent of NASCAR. The touring cars are 2l 4 cyclinders in production body shells which run exclusively on road coarses. NASCAR isn't remotely related to production cars.<p>: As far as AWD road racing, Audi quattros won:<p>: 1988 Trans Am series (with production bodied Audi 200 sedans racing against tube framed Camaros/Corvettes/Mustangs that had 100 hp more than the Audi) Next year they were banned (AWD)<p>: 1989 GTO series with Audi 90 quattros<p>: 1990 thru 1997 turing car series with Audi V8 quattros and A4 quattros (Formula changed during this period to 2L cars) <p>: In 1997 won ALL touring car championships (British, German, Italian, Australian, and a couple of more I can't remember) with weight penalties (for AWD) and were still banned for having "an unfair advantage".<p>: I beleive Alfa runs FWD cars in the touring car series.<p>: Cheers<p></i>

an unfair advantage rickp
09-27-1999, 03:17 AM
.......this is mostly with "rally" type races though. On most tracks a light RWD will kill quattro. Rally races are another thing.<p>Rick

Geza
09-27-1999, 06:48 AM
<br>factory sponsored cars in the T.C. series for several years. MB did back in the early '90's (against the Audi V8). They have a new car that will enter the series next year.

Geza
09-27-1999, 07:01 AM
award was for feel/response/turn-in/etc. I know the 944 & M3 was voted best handling car (at various times). I wasn't questioning their handling prowess; I was just commenting on the post that said all FWD cars have "mucked up" steeing.<p>Regarding "unfair advantage"; this is what the race governing bodies called the advantage Audi's quattro AWD system had. They dominated the series and (after being saddled with increased weight penalties) were then banned from competition. Audi now runs FWD cars (with mixed success).<p>The advanteges of AWD on a wet/slippery track are obvious; on the dry track, the Audi quattros were able to brake later and get back on the gas earlier. I beleive the ability to minimize tire wear (as power is being put down on 4 tires instead of 2) was a major advantage.

Geza
09-27-1999, 07:07 AM
Audi quattro success (domination, really) in the Trans Am series, IMSA GTO and all of the Touring Car series? Mostly light RWD competition that Audi quattro killed on road coarses!

TTMan
09-27-1999, 09:46 AM
On a racetrack (and this is according to Hurley Haywood) an AWD car will post faster average times than a RWD car because it manages tires better and allows you to get on the power earlier in the turn. If RWD is so superior, why has AWD (mainly an Audi eccentricity) been banned in the DTM, BTCC, and Trans-Am?

Zinhead
09-27-1999, 12:59 PM
The NACSCAR statement was made to illustrate the relative level of racing in each country. In the US, NASCAR is the top series for production bodied vehicles, and arguably the number 2 series after CART. In Europe, the Touring car championships are based on production cars, and run second fiddle to F1 and LeMans style racing. The cars are totally different, but NASCAR and the touring car series occupy the same general level in the racing hierachy in thier respective countries. <p>The mucked up statement is based on my impressions of steering feel alone. IMHO, the best steering feel is obtained from a RWD car with unassisted rack and pinion steering. Cars like the 911, 944 or Alfa GTV6 excelled at this attribute. The current M3 is behind these cars in that department, and it is one the best of the modern sportscars in terms of steering feel. However, with wider tires, power steering is standard on most newer vehicles.<p>The problem with FWD cars is that they tend to have overboosted power steering to cover up problems with torque steer. For example, drive an original VW Scirroco w/o power steering compared to a modern GTI or Jetta. The old Scirroco transmits much more information than the newer car. Yeah, you can feel the torque steer, but that is what you want on the race track.<p>As for the success of Audi on the racetrack, that is proven by thier success and subsequent changing of the rules. BTW, Alfa did run an AWD car for a while before they were banned. There was a homologation version sold. I believe they won the German toruing championship at least one year with a 155, although I don't know if it was an AWD car.

documenting IMSA wins NT rickp
09-28-1999, 10:18 AM
<i>: Audi quattro success (domination, really) in the Trans Am series, IMSA GTO and all of the Touring Car series? Mostly light RWD competition that Audi quattro killed on road coarses! <p></i>


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