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BK
11-06-1999, 12:59 AM
I'm looking for opinions in comparing the 225 hp Quattro Audi TT coupe vs. the E46 M3. Since neither car will be here til next year, it's all speculation, but bring it on! I figure the TT has the advantage in styling and price, while the M3 wins in power and reliablility....<p><br> <br> <br>

JG
11-06-1999, 01:07 AM
First off, the TT looks like something out of a Woody Allen movie- or an exotic new Beetle. Both cars are going to be reliable, both companies make great cars. Yeah, the M3 won't be able to conquer the snow, but who cares when your looking at sports cars- the guys on the A4 board are all hung up over the AWD thing (BMW,Mercedes,Jags-they all suck because they don't have AWD like my Audi)-anyhow, the new M3 will be all over that new 225hp TT quattro.

Ken
11-06-1999, 03:11 AM
can't really compare........$45+ vs $35+ .......340hp vs 225hp........4 seater vs 2+2.........rwd vs 4wd..........<p>i think m3 is more practical, and tt is more of a toy. a better comparison would be tt vs m-coupe or roadster. needless to say, as a happy m-coupe owner, the tt doesn't have a chance against the m(unless of course the weather gets bad). better yet, just wait till they put the 320 (or 340) hp engine in the m-coupe!

Gregor
11-06-1999, 04:23 AM
<i>: First off, the TT looks like something out of a Woody Allen movie- or an exotic new Beetle. <p></i I am not fond of cookie cutter cars, and I think the stylist could have gone a little more radical on the current E46. Hopefully the E46 M3 will respond to this. The TT, however, looks like a caricature of a Beetle. The more I look at it, the less I like it. <p>Gregor<br>E46 00 328Ci

Bob F
11-06-1999, 10:56 AM
look closely at the old the old karmen ghia.<br>with the release of the new beetle, VW should have released the TT as the new karmen ghia..<p>besides, it shares new beetle parts...<p><br><i>: First off, the TT looks like something out of a Woody Allen movie- or an exotic new Beetle. Both cars are going to be reliable, both companies make great cars. Yeah, the M3 won't be able to conquer the snow, but who cares when your looking at sports cars- the guys on the A4 board are all hung up over the AWD thing (BMW,Mercedes,Jags-they all suck because they don't have AWD like my Audi)-anyhow, the new M3 will be all over that new 225hp TT quattro.<p></i>

NB
11-06-1999, 11:02 AM
The TT will definitely get the looks. The reliability issue is unknown, since the 1.8T powerplant has only been around for about five years in Europe. But the 1.8T has been tuned to 300hp while retaining stock reliability, so it's really not a plausible issue to compare. The E46 M3 design study looks like a mini-M5 (in other words, gorgeous), and nothing looks like the TT, so it's really just a matter of taste (I really like the Bauhaus/industrial design of the TT, but I also like the clean lines and shark's mouth of the M3). You'll definitely have a rarer car in the TT. And nobody really knows about the price difference yet. Tuneability is another possible issue. It's really unknown how many companies will have parts available for the E46, while the engine in the TT has many, many companies tuning for it already (APR, GreedSpeed, TAP). It's all a matter of taste. Even though I'm a huge Audi fan and I love the TT, I'd take a serious look at the M3. Of course I'd also take a look at the PowerDyne SC from ESS Tuning for the E46.

I have ever seen......!!!
11-06-1999, 12:36 PM
<i>: I'm looking for opinions in comparing the 225 hp Quattro Audi TT coupe vs. the E46 M3. Since neither car will be here til next year, it's all speculation, but bring it on! I figure the TT has the advantage in styling and price, while the M3 wins in power and reliablility....<p>: <br>: <br>: <p></i>

Mark G
11-06-1999, 01:49 PM
I can't remember the reason (I'm sure the info's available at a4.org), but it does make you question design, reliability, etc.<p>Anyway, I agree that the cars are in separate leagues-performance, price, intent, style, etc. are very different. That makes them hard to compare--it just depends on what you are looking for. Personally, I'm looking for a fast sports coupe with great handling and aggressive looks--so I'm on the waiting list for the M3. And I'll add a supercharger somewhere down the line (unless that V8 actually does make it to market).<p>Mark G

NB
11-06-1999, 07:19 PM
To deal with a handling instability problem (snap oversteer...at least Audi's offering a fix, Porsche never did) that only seems to mainfest itself on hgh-speed (110 mph or above) turns. The fix is simply a small spoiler on the tail similar to the one offered by JEDesign. Doesn't make me question reliability or design at all. Porsche had the same problem up until the 993-generation, and nobody griped about it. But, as I said, I'd take a serious look at the M3 instead, if for nothing other than practicality. TT's got hellacious cargo space when the back seats are folded (if you can call that space anything other than a parcel shelf), but the M3 will be able to handle four adults and have cargo space left over. And I think the overall design will hold up a little better as it ages.

NB
11-06-1999, 07:26 PM
...not all Audi owners think everything else sucks (although I'm not too fond of Jag and MB offering only autos. SLK doesn't count). Many I've talked to just wanted something different. I could say that the guys on the M3 board are hung up on RWD (Audi sucks, they have to use AWD). Be careful making blanket statements like that. BTW, to my knowledge, the 225Q TT is really not intended to compete with the E46 M3. The Audi RS4 and the next-gen S4 (due in 2001) are intended to. And Bob is correct, the TT is really just a modern-day iteration of the Karmann Ghia.

spoiler. (eom) AvusBlue
11-06-1999, 09:38 PM
<i>: To deal with a handling instability problem (snap oversteer...at least Audi's offering a fix, Porsche never did) that only seems to mainfest itself on hgh-speed (110 mph or above) turns. The fix is simply a small spoiler on the tail similar to the one offered by JEDesign. Doesn't make me question reliability or design at all. Porsche had the same problem up until the 993-generation, and nobody griped about it. But, as I said, I'd take a serious look at the M3 instead, if for nothing other than practicality. TT's got hellacious cargo space when the back seats are folded (if you can call that space anything other than a parcel shelf), but the M3 will be able to handle four adults and have cargo space left over. And I think the overall design will hold up a little better as it ages.<p></i>

Mark G
11-06-1999, 09:51 PM
The recall is mandatory only in Europe, here it's voluntary. According to A4.org, the fix consists of essentially an all new susension (control arm, shocks, and sway bars), some improved underneath cladding, plus the spoiler. Some of the parts won't be available for a while, such as the spoiler, which will be out in February.<p>By the way, it would make me question the design, because I know the M3 is not prone to high-speed instability. Even with a "fix," I'd still think twice about going into a high-speed turn.<p>Mark G

JG
11-06-1999, 10:58 PM
of course not every Audi owner thinks that way, being that I know 4 Audi owners personally. From what I have encountered on that board, many of the people counter any opinion about another car company with comments regarding the lack of AWD. <br>And its hard to reverse the situation, because rear wheel drive or AWD (its all good)- I have never once saw a comment here regarding how great Rear wheel drive was compared to AWD. Just a fact that many Audi owners hold the belief that having AWD is the best thing since TV dinners.

NB
11-06-1999, 11:19 PM
...some people think that way...personally, I prefer RWD. AWD is just a little too twitchy for me. During a turn, I like to have the power going one way or the other, not constantly adjusting from front-to-rear. But there are some AWD-fanatics there. Have to agree with you on that point.

JG
11-06-1999, 11:32 PM
I like RWD myself also, and I have an AWD car (99 Subaru 2.5RS)- it has its moments, but I wish it was RWD (among Subaru owners, I'm definitely in the minority on that one).<p>JG<br>00 Mcoupe

Bruce
11-07-1999, 11:41 AM
*lights brigthen, scene is small court room with many many TV cameras*<p>plantiff's lawyer: "Sir, do you recognize this document?"<br>president of Audi NA: "Yes I do."<br>plantiff's lawyer: "Is it correct to say that this document tells all European owners of the Audi TT were advised to bring their cars into an Audi dealer to fix to potential problem of their car being unstable at high speeds and could cause a crash?"<br>president of Audi NA: "Yes that is correct."<br>plantiff's lawyer: "It is my understanding that this 'recall' was voluntary on US cars. Is that correct."<br>president of Audi NA: *mumbling* "Yes that is correct."<br>plantiff's lawyer: "I am sorry, I didn't hear that. Would you please repeat that so the jury can hear you."<br>president of Audi NA: "Yes that is correct."<br>plantiff's lawyer: "So who made the decision to not make the 'recall' applicable to US cars."<p>*fade out*<p>moral: in today's US legal climate, were the Audi lawyers asleep at the wheel? IMO, yes. BMW lawyers stopped the mobility system from being shipped on most 98 M roadster due to perceived daqngers of inproper use. If Audi doesn't make this a mandtory recall there WILL BE a lawsuit for somebody getting injured. Glad I am not the lawyer at Audi that made that decision.<p><p><p>

Gilbert
11-07-1999, 07:52 PM
Everywhere I read the problem was snap oversteer.

Nick
11-07-1999, 09:55 PM
: <br>: <p></i>

AvusBlue
11-07-1999, 11:26 PM
<br></i> In this instance, I believe voluntary means that the US government (NHTSA ?) hasn't required Audi of NA to recall the vehicles. The lawyers probably did their job and Audi avoids the additional embarassment of being forced to take action.<p>My big question is, Why the delay between the Euro recall and the NA recall? I don't buy the argument about Americans not driving fast enough to make it worth while. Based on what I've read on these bimmer pages and what I've personally seen and done, Americans ocassionally drive more than fast enough to make it worth while for Audi to fix the problem.<p>David<br>AvusBlue 95 M3/2

Tim
11-08-1999, 12:03 AM
<i>: <br>: In this instance, I believe voluntary means that the US government (NHTSA ?) hasn't required Audi of NA to recall the vehicles. The lawyers probably did their job and Audi avoids the additional embarassment of being forced to take action.<p>: My big question is, Why the delay between the Euro recall and the NA recall? I don't buy the argument about Americans not driving fast enough to make it worth while. Based on what I've read on these bimmer pages and what I've personally seen and done, Americans ocassionally drive more than fast enough to make it worth while for Audi to fix the problem.<p>: David<br>: AvusBlue 95 M3/2<p></i>

Drex
11-08-1999, 04:52 AM
I read somewhere that many test drivers for the TT complained about high-speed instability BEFORE the car was put on the market. Their recommendations fell on deaf ears though - b/c Audi thinks that a spoiler would spoil the clean lines of the car.<p>I don't know about you, but any company that choses looks over the safety of it's consumers would NOT get my respect - or money.

Lorenz
11-08-1999, 04:31 PM
<i>: <br>: In this instance, I believe voluntary means that the US government (NHTSA ?) hasn't required Audi of NA to recall the vehicles. The lawyers probably did their job and Audi avoids the additional embarassment of being forced to take action.<br></i><p><br>Agreed. The lawyers at Audi USA <b>are</b> doing their job by recommending the recall before it becomes mandatory.<p>Now put yourself in Audi's shoes: There's a limited number of the upgrade kits available, and a limited rate at which you can do the upgrades (i.e. x cars per day per dealer). You've got to fight a fire, and you're gonna fight it where it burns the hottest first.<p>How much publicity have you seen about the TT problems in the US media? I haven't seen any. In Germany, this is <b>all over</b> the news, and I don't mean just the car mags. This is mainstream, Time/Newsweek-level news, i.e. my grandmother has probably read about it in the daily newspaper... Audi is under "Zugzwang" (pressure to do something) in Germany, and do something fast.<p>Also, how many TT's have been sold in the US? I don't think it's that many. In Germany, I know it's quite a lot, as the car has been out in the public's hands for almost a year over there.<p><br><i><br>: My big question is, Why the delay between the Euro recall and the NA recall? I don't buy the argument about Americans not driving fast enough to make it worth while. Based on what I've read on these bimmer pages and what I've personally seen and done, Americans ocassionally drive more than fast enough to make it worth while for Audi to fix the problem.<br></i><p>I think it's a matter of resources and fire fighting. Let's hope for Audi that no US customer wraps their TT around a tree before they do the recall here in the US...<p>Lorenz<br>

Michael
11-08-1999, 06:39 PM
The recall, prompted by the death of a German Journalist (thus bringing into question the reliability of information presented by the interested parties) is voluntary on every continent in every nation.<p>Voluntary indicates that Audi took action without being instructed to by the governing Authorities in all countries involved.<p>Try this artical for a different slant on the recal if you like.<p>http://www.vwvortex.com/home.html<p>Most TT fans will tell you the recall is unnecessary.<p>BTW I've gone into a high speed turn with the TT without difficulty or instability. <p>Michael<p><i>: The recall is mandatory only in Europe, here it's voluntary. According to A4.org, the fix consists of essentially an all new susension (control arm, shocks, and sway bars), some improved underneath cladding, plus the spoiler. Some of the parts won't be available for a while, such as the spoiler, which will be out in February.<p>: By the way, it would make me question the design, because I know the M3 is not prone to high-speed instability. Even with a "fix," I'd still think twice about going into a high-speed turn.<p>: Mark G<p></i>

AvusBlue
11-08-1999, 08:31 PM
<i>: : <br>: : In this instance, I believe voluntary means that the US government (NHTSA ?) hasn't required Audi of NA to recall the vehicles. The lawyers probably did their job and Audi avoids the additional embarassment of being forced to take action.<p>: <br>: Agreed. The lawyers at Audi USA <b>are</b> doing their job by recommending the recall before it becomes mandatory.<p>: Now put yourself in Audi's shoes: There's a limited number of the upgrade kits available, and a limited rate at which you can do the upgrades (i.e. x cars per day per dealer). You've got to fight a fire, and you're gonna fight it where it burns the hottest first.<p>: How much publicity have you seen about the TT problems in the US media? I haven't seen any. In Germany, this is <b>all over</b> the news, and I don't mean just the car mags. This is mainstream, Time/Newsweek-level news, i.e. my grandmother has probably read about it in the daily newspaper... Audi is under "Zugzwang" (pressure to do something) in Germany, and do something fast.<p>: Also, how many TT's have been sold in the US? I don't think it's that many. In Germany, I know it's quite a lot, as the car has been out in the public's hands for almost a year over there.<p>: <br>: <br>: : My big question is, Why the delay between the Euro recall and the NA recall? I don't buy the argument about Americans not driving fast enough to make it worth while. Based on what I've read on these bimmer pages and what I've personally seen and done, Americans ocassionally drive more than fast enough to make it worth while for Audi to fix the problem.<p>: I think it's a matter of resources and fire fighting. Let's hope for Audi that no US customer wraps their TT around a tree before they do the recall here in the US...<p>: Lorenz<p></i>Thanks for the response. You make a valid point, however, the fact/possibility that parts are limited should not have made a significant difference in when Audi verbally made positive comment on this issue. You don't have to have the parts in hand to say you're going to do something. In fact, the comment that they've made to date implies that the parts aren't available anyway.<p>I don't pay much attention to what's happening to the TT. However, as an M3 driver, I would be highly disappointed at BMW if they gave me the initial impression that the US matters less. If Audi is set up like BMW, then I believe the real responsiblity for this response rested with Audi of NA, not AUDI. I suspect that an enthusiast is more sensitive to these issues than the public at large. As you pointed out, Germany is the real hot spot, not NA. I'm sure Audi doesn't want the equivalent "sudden acceleration" thing to happen again.<p>David<br>AvusBlue 95M3/2

but mandatory for Euro drivers...
11-08-1999, 09:36 PM
<i>: The recall, prompted by the death of a German Journalist (thus bringing into question the reliability of information presented by the interested parties) is voluntary on every continent in every nation.<p>: Voluntary indicates that Audi took action without being instructed to by the governing Authorities in all countries involved.<p>: Try this artical for a different slant on the recal if you like.<p>: http://www.vwvortex.com/home.html<p>: Most TT fans will tell you the recall is unnecessary.<p>: BTW I've gone into a high speed turn with the TT without difficulty or instability. <p>: Michael<p>: : The recall is mandatory only in Europe, here it's voluntary. According to A4.org, the fix consists of essentially an all new susension (control arm, shocks, and sway bars), some improved underneath cladding, plus the spoiler. Some of the parts won't be available for a while, such as the spoiler, which will be out in February.<p>: : By the way, it would make me question the design, because I know the M3 is not prone to high-speed instability. Even with a "fix," I'd still think twice about going into a high-speed turn.<p>: : Mark G<p></i>

mill
11-09-1999, 09:48 AM
<br>: <p></i>

nuno
11-10-1999, 02:51 PM
<i>: can't really compare........$45+ vs $35+ .......340hp vs 225hp........4 seater vs 2+2.........rwd vs 4wd..........<p>I think we're comparing the M3 to the wrong Audi. I beleive the TT is in the Z3 market. The S4 is the market equivalent to the M3. It starts at 38k vs 45k M3. 250hp vs 350hp. both 4 seaters. Quattro AWD is standard on S4. The 5.6 0-60 is impressive considering the AWD.

Nick
11-10-1999, 02:55 PM
anyhow, the new M3 will be all over that new 225hp TT quattro.<p>Compare the M3 to the S4 250hp twin turbo. 0-60 in 5.6 with quattro.

Paul
11-10-1999, 03:15 PM
:The Audi RS4 and the next-gen S4 (due in 2001) are intended to. And Bob is correct, the TT is really just a modern-day iteration of the Karmann Ghia.<p></i>That RS4 puts down 350 hp.

Nikk
11-10-1999, 03:49 PM
<i>: <br>: : <p></i>Will it roast an S4????

VERY different for comparing
11-11-1999, 05:41 PM
<i>: I'm looking for opinions in comparing the 225 hp Quattro Audi TT coupe vs. the E46 M3. Since neither car will be here til next year, it's all speculation, but bring it on! I figure the TT has the advantage in styling and price, while the M3 wins in power and reliablility....<p>: <br>: <br>: <p><br></i>

Rick in Colorado
11-14-1999, 10:47 AM
<i>: <br>: : <p></i>

TT and doesn't even notice the Bimmer
11-14-1999, 10:50 AM
<i>: : I'm looking for opinions in comparing the 225 hp Quattro Audi TT coupe vs. the E46 M3. Since neither car will be here til next year, it's all speculation, but bring it on! I figure the TT has the advantage in styling and price, while the M3 wins in power and reliablility....<p>: : <br>: : <br>: : <p></i>

Lez
11-25-1999, 01:41 AM
<i>: The AUDI builds the TT in Hungary ! I'm from Hungary too and tell you one thing : I'd never buy a hungarian product even if it is under a German name. At least not in the first or second year that is for sure ! Quality was always a problem and also the TT's design just as bad as MB's CLK-GTR's desing. Did you guys see the flip ? Maybe MB and Audi wanted to show BMW they can do better and they both failed ? Very possible I think ! Way to go Bimmer !!!<p><p></i>

Alfonso Gutierrez
11-25-1999, 02:32 AM
<i>: <br>: : <br>Very light car and very easy to MOD. Don't get me wrong... I'm looking forward to the new M3 or the 330... but i will keep my TT. <p><br></i>


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