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Incredulous
01-14-2001, 01:46 AM
I have a 540i and 328i. Had E36 M3. Waiting two years for a marked up E46 M3 is ridiculous. As good as the car is, we should refuse to pay anything above list and BMN NA should not allow its dealers to charge above list. Is this car better than a Porsche 911? At 3.25 liters I don't think so - and it can't be that much quicker than a 330i.<p>No way this should cost as much (or more) than a 540i. <p>(I guess there won't be any BMW CCA discounts!)

Steve_D
01-14-2001, 02:21 AM
In comparison to a 540i, I would hope that the M3 Sunroof and Leather seats were standard (but deleteable) in the base price. Als, they are a $3000 option in the package. <p>I'm paying MSRP so that comment doesn't apply. Most gounging dealers are on the Coasts.<p>However, in comparison to a CLK55 its still a bargain. And the Cabrio is priced right with the Lexus 430 and well under a Carrera Cabriolet, albeit without the build quality of Lexus (please no flames every objective rating out there puts Lexus quality way ahead of BMW).

JG
01-14-2001, 02:36 AM
about supply and demand, if the car is technically sold out for 2 years or whatever and one happens to become available (due to a cancellation after the car arrives)- the dealer has the option to offer it to the next person on the list or put it on the floor and ask whatever they want....lets say they put it on the floor for $5k over, if you don't want to pay the premium- get on a reputable dealers list for MSRP and wait.<p>Now, if a dealer has people with MSRP in writing and attempts to not honor it- then thats shady, and highly doubt most dealers would go there.<p>Hey, I want an all stainless Rolex Daytona- but will have to pay a $1500-$2000 premium to get it immediately, it has always had a 2-3 year wait.

D.A. 2001
01-14-2001, 03:03 AM
<i><br>registration fee's. I am including some optional equipment in this estimate. That is all I'm willing to pay for this car because thats how much it is worth. Not 70k plus tax and etc. I have MSRP in writing, but if they change their mind, well BMW is going to recieve a very nasty phone call. If I have to pay 70K I will just get me a carrera cab and stick with the porsche family. I have been very satisfied with Porsche since my boxster S purchase. I have owned BMW's previously and all of them have been good experiences, but having to pay over MSRP for the M3 is pretty f***** up if you ask me. The car is only worth what it says on the sticker price, nothing more.<br>

Dirk
01-14-2001, 05:02 AM
With 113 more horsepower than a 330i, how can't it be much quicker?<p>Where do you people come from?

[cyberpunk]
01-14-2001, 06:22 AM
Not that much quicker...yes, ok. Hey um, who's your dealer? Can you like, hook me up?<p>BMW's own 0-60 statement<br>330 = 6.7s<br>M3 = 4.8s<p>Of course the actual 0-60 on the 330 is about 6.0 to 6.1...but, yeah man, still, lay off the pipe.<p><br><i><br>I have a 540i and 328i. Had E36 M3. Waiting two years for a marked up E46 M3 is ridiculous. As good as the car is, we should refuse to pay anything above list and BMN NA should not allow its dealers to charge above list. Is this car better than a Porsche 911? At 3.25 liters I don't think so - and it can't be that much quicker than a 330i.<p>No way this should cost as much (or more) than a 540i. <p>(I guess there won't be any BMW CCA discounts!)<p></i><br>

Andy
01-14-2001, 09:58 AM
<i><br>With 113 more horsepower than a 330i, how can't it be much quicker?<p>Where do you people come from?<p></i><br>"Quickness" 0-60 is more a function of torque not horsepower. Horsepower becomes more important after the wind starts becoming more of a factor than the weight of the accelerating car. Lets say after about 70 mph.<br>

Ian T
01-14-2001, 06:16 PM
<i><p>With 113 more horsepower than a 330i, how can't it be much quicker?<p>Where do you people come from?<p><br>"Quickness" 0-60 is more a function of torque not horsepower.<p></i><p>Absolute rubbish. If you improve bhp without increasing torque that must mean increasing the revs. That means you can hang on to 1st gear/2nd gear for longer than in the less powerful car. What does that mean? Longer in the higher acceleration gears leading to better performance.<p>Or, you could aim for the same maximum speed in each gear and increase the final drive ratio ... hey presto ... you get more torque at the wheels hence more performance in the higher power car.<p><i><p>Horsepower becomes more important after the wind starts becoming more of a factor than the weight of the accelerating car. Lets say after about 70 mph.<br></i><p>You really need to go back to school and you really need to start understanding the difference between "torque at the flywheel" and "torque at the driven wheels".<p>Ian.<br>

markup doesn't apply, i've got
01-15-2001, 12:05 AM
<i><br>I have a 540i and 328i. Had E36 M3. Waiting two years for a marked up E46 M3 is ridiculous. As good as the car is, we should refuse to pay anything above list and BMN NA should not allow its dealers to charge above list. Is this car better than a Porsche 911? At 3.25 liters I don't think so - and it can't be that much quicker than a 330i.<p>No way this should cost as much (or more) than a 540i. <p>(I guess there won't be any BMW CCA discounts!)<p></i>MSRP in writing(and still plan on getting something off of the car, even if it's just $500 or so). Second, this car does not cost what a 540 does! It's $47k, not $57k like all the 540's i know of!! Third, "not much quicker than a 330"??!!! What stats are you reading? 1.5 sec quicker to 60 and a top end of at least 25mph is much quicker IMO!!!!<br>

Incredulous
01-15-2001, 03:51 PM
My 540i has much more low torque than my 3.2 E36 M3 ever had (was published at 236 if I recall). I read in a car mag - which loved the M3 - how it had a hard time catching the 330i on the highway -surprising, but then again the engine is less than 10% bigger. Think of the Integra vs. the Integra with VTEC - quicker time if you whip it like crazy, not so in non-race track driving. (Of course, the M3 is a much better car with more displacement thann the Integra).<p>My 540i was $50k, nicely loaded - before the discounts.

Incredulous
01-15-2001, 03:54 PM
<br>Your physics is correct but by seat of the pants driving, the prior writer may alos be correct - if its like the Integra. I drove both a VTEC and non-VTEC version. The VTEC was quicker only when flogged at VERY high RPMs.<p>We'll see about the M3.... <p><i><p>With 113 more horsepower than a 330i, how can't it be much quicker?<p>Where do you people come from?<p><br>"Quickness" 0-60 is more a function of torque not horsepower.<p><br>Absolute rubbish. If you improve bhp without increasing torque that must mean increasing the revs. That means you can hang on to 1st gear/2nd gear for longer than in the less powerful car. What does that mean? Longer in the higher acceleration gears leading to better performance.<p>Or, you could aim for the same maximum speed in each gear and increase the final drive ratio ... hey presto ... you get more torque at the wheels hence more performance in the higher power car.<p><br>Horsepower becomes more important after the wind starts becoming more of a factor than the weight of the accelerating car. Lets say after about 70 mph.<p>You really need to go back to school and you really need to start understanding the difference between "torque at the flywheel" and "torque at the driven wheels".<p>Ian.<p></i><br>

Incredulous
01-15-2001, 03:57 PM
You're going to have to flog it (VERY high rpm driving to get a big difference. In normal driving the difference will be a lot less.) <p>Think of the VTEC integra.<p><p><i><br>Not that much quicker...yes, ok. Hey um, who's your dealer? Can you like, hook me up?<p>BMW's own 0-60 statement<br>330 = 6.7s<br>M3 = 4.8s<p>Of course the actual 0-60 on the 330 is about 6.0 to 6.1...but, yeah man, still, lay off the pipe.<p><p>I have a 540i and 328i. Had E36 M3. Waiting two years for a marked up E46 M3 is ridiculous. As good as the car is, we should refuse to pay anything above list and BMN NA should not allow its dealers to charge above list. Is this car better than a Porsche 911? At 3.25 liters I don't think so - and it can't be that much quicker than a 330i.<p>No way this should cost as much (or more) than a 540i. <p>(I guess there won't be any BMW CCA discounts!)<p><br></i><br>

Incredulous
01-15-2001, 03:58 PM
<i><p>registration fee's. I am including some optional equipment in this estimate. That is all I'm willing to pay for this car because thats how much it is worth. Not 70k plus tax and etc. I have MSRP in writing, but if they change their mind, well BMW is going to recieve a very nasty phone call. If I have to pay 70K I will just get me a carrera cab and stick with the porsche family. I have been very satisfied with Porsche since my boxster S purchase. I have owned BMW's previously and all of them have been good experiences, but having to pay over MSRP for the M3 is pretty f***** up if you ask me. The car is only worth what it says on the sticker price, nothing more.<p></i><br>

Incredulous
01-15-2001, 04:01 PM
I want more hp and more LOW-end torque for those $$$$. A non-trick BMW 6 with 3.6 liters would have been awesome.<p><p><p><p><br><i><p>Your physics is correct but by seat of the pants driving, the prior writer may alos be correct - if its like the Integra. I drove both a VTEC and non-VTEC version. The VTEC was quicker only when flogged at VERY high RPMs.<p>We'll see about the M3.... <p><br>With 113 more horsepower than a 330i, how can't it be much quicker?<p>Where do you people come from?<p><br>"Quickness" 0-60 is more a function of torque not horsepower.<p><br>Absolute rubbish. If you improve bhp without increasing torque that must mean increasing the revs. That means you can hang on to 1st gear/2nd gear for longer than in the less powerful car. What does that mean? Longer in the higher acceleration gears leading to better performance.<p>Or, you could aim for the same maximum speed in each gear and increase the final drive ratio ... hey presto ... you get more torque at the wheels hence more performance in the higher power car.<p><br>Horsepower becomes more important after the wind starts becoming more of a factor than the weight of the accelerating car. Lets say after about 70 mph.<p>You really need to go back to school and you really need to start understanding the difference between "torque at the flywheel" and "torque at the driven wheels".<p>Ian.<p><br></i><br>

Ian T
01-15-2001, 04:04 PM
<i><p>Your physics is correct but by seat of the pants driving, the prior writer may alos be correct <p></i><p>Nope. He was saying that 0-60 is more related to torque than horsepower. That statement was entirely incorrect.<p>I'll repeat again ... torque at the flywheel is meaningless until you turn it into torque at the driven wheels. This depends on gearing.<p>Do you really think that the M3 will have less in-gear acceleration than the 330d (which has more torque _but_ has longer gearing)?<p>Ian.<br>


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