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Mperor
05-14-2002, 02:27 PM
Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Want a fast sports coupe?
>
> > Mercedes-Benz CLK-GTR (at least when they don't go airborne...). They
> were
> > built purely for the reason of satisfying the ACO's homologation rules and
>
>Does this bother _anyone else_ but me? The whole point of the E30M3 was to
>create a no-holds-barred, barely street legal, racing version
>3-series. That's
>what always excited me about that car. But evolution happened.
>
>When the E36 came out, they got away from this a bit. But you're willing to
>overlook it for the fact that better the S50US then nothing at all. Then
>they
>made a sedan -- an automatic! -- and a convertible. The car is still
>extremely
>powerful and great handling, a magnificent car or we all wouldn't have bought
>it, but they started to dilute the brand.
>
>Now we have the E46M3. If you listen to the automotive journalists, it's the
>best thing since sliced bread. I don't believe it. It's hot and all, but
>it's
>still a luxo-barge. A damn fast one, but not what the name stood for in the
>beginning.


<snip><snip><snip>

"Luxo-Barge"

wait a just a second...........

The E46 M3 has more Motorsport in it than the US E36 M3 ever had and it all
starts (but doesn't stop) with the motor. In fact, the motor was/is the
single biggest and most important difference that separated all of the
early M cars including the first M3 from their non-M car counterparts. And
unfortunately, the US version M3 never got a Motorsport engine. Remember,
we are talking about a 250lb difference between the E46M3 and the E36 M3
and the E46 M3 has bigger brakes, wheels, tires, swaybars, 6speed
transmission, differential, stiffer chassis, better sport seats, etc. I
would like to see a real apples to apples weight comparison of a US E36 M3
with the same re-enforcements to the chassis that would make it equal in
stiffness to the E46 M3 along with the bigger brakes, wheels, and tires and
then see how we end up reproving the theory of "there's no such thing as a
free lunch"

So lets do a quick out-of-the-box comparo


The S54 E46 M3 engine just so happens to have
-6 throttles (instead of one on a bored and stroked 2.5liter civilian engine)
-sodium filled exhaust valves
-solid lifters
-headers
-40% less exhaust back pressure than the E36
-8000rpm rev limit
-oil cooler that connects to an oil temp (not mpg) gauge
-and a whole bunch of other cool @#!$it that would take way too long to list


Stiffer chassis (to the point where the difference could even be detected
by your grandma's chassis stiffness butt dyno)
bigger brakes
bigger wheels
bigger tires
stiffer suspension
aluminum hood
incredible differential with silly traction (I hate to wax technical and all)
6speeds (need I say more)
smoother more powerful and responsive acceleration hmmm I wonder why;-)
bigger and more heavy duty drive-line components
more aggressive sport seats

Now if you are bothered by the fact that the new M3 has literally a handful
more of available options than were offered on your E36 then just don't
order them or buy a car without them, or take them off.

Full comprehension of the E46 M3 does not come from a single test drive at
the dealer, but from a good weeks worth of driving experiences. The most
deceptive part about the car is the fact that the engineering evolution of
BMW Motorsport as exists in the E46 M3 is so potent that it fools you into
thinking that there might be nothing there when in reality most of what is
there is on a different level at a significantly higher rate of speed. It
truly is an M car in that it requires an Autobahn to reveal the full depth
of its sometimes deceptive and even enigmatic abilities.

I have a sneaking suspicion that a few days in the cockpit of the E46 M3
would cause Peter to forget entirely the term "Luxo-Barge" and might even
cause him to hear things like "turn off the car and put your hands in the
air where we can see them" ;-)

Regards,

Josh
www.eurosporthighperformance.com

BTW if you are interested in seeing the results of last weeks dyno tests on
the upcoming 96-99 3.2L M3 cam kit you can see them on a hidden link on my
website at www.eurosporthighperformance.com\cams.html


Josh MacMurray
Eurosport

Your source for Jim Conforti / Landshark products
Shark Injectors and Shark Intake Systems
Phone 801 886 2185 fax 801 886 2189
www.eurosporthighperformance.com
<br><img src="http://members.roadfly.com/mperor/Stau Grauu.jpg" height=60 width=300>

Jorg
05-14-2002, 02:38 PM
Thanks MPeror, I had to save Josh's remarks next time someone gives me some crap. In addition to Josh's assertion that it requires an Autobahn to fully appreciate, I'd like to point out that we may not have the Autobahn , but we do have VIR, PIR, Gateway, Mid-Ohio, LimeRock, Laguna Seca,Heartland Park, Roebling Rd, yada yada yada....

A full on-song lap around VIR's fullcourse, or many testaments from Stonie on Laguna, or Greg on PIR, or Don on Gateway (you get my drift) illustrate where our cars REALLY come alive, perhaps even better (while I've not driven there) than even the Autobahn.

That's what I tell people that don't drive on a racetrack, and they just don't get it.

I told my boss that driving around a racetrack is stress relief, and he just looked at me like a deer in the headlights. "Why ?" he asked, "because nothing else matters,not work, not family, not finances, it doesn't matter if I'm hungry or thirsty or horny. All that really matters is how well I can take that next turn". 2 days and counting until I get my next fix :)<br><img src="http://members.roadfly.com/jorg/M3GTRSig.jpg">

Bcar
05-14-2002, 02:46 PM
Yes, but I've seen track prepped E30 M3s put the smack down on E46 M3s... Stock for stock is a joke, the E46 will crush them all (E30/E36).

But I do agree that the M3 is too heavy to be considered a true high performance track car that you can take to work.
It has tradeoffs. I just think they leaned more towards the luxury end of the spectrum than the performance end with the E46.
That is what I would like to have happen to M cars, lean more towards the performance side, a person who wants all the full luxury doesn't really "want or need" the pure performance, most of them just think they do because it is the flag ship of the car line, and they want to say they have the BEST or an "M car" but they really don't get it IMO. BMW should not cater to these people, but they do and I think that is what is going to loose them M car customers.

Rice Cooker
05-14-2002, 02:52 PM
I have a 2002m3 and a may 94 production 1995m3. Although I love my 2002 and realize that it is probably better in every measurable way (except for weight), I can't help but feel that the e36 is more of an "enthusiast's" car. I just feel like I'm twice as connected to the road and I can really feel what the car is doing and when it's going to give. The outer limits of the e46 are higher, but at the same time I feel that you give something up in the form of cummunictaion between the driver and the car. If I had to chose one, I would ofcourse pick the new e46; but don't ever discount the visceral feeling that the e36 will leave you with.

RC

Jorg
05-14-2002, 02:58 PM
the street. I have ridden in E36 M3s at track events with the instructors who own them. I completely believe everything I have heard about the connected and communicative feel, I felt some nice stuff while riding, but I have not experienced it behind the wheel. Had I gotten wise enough to buy this sort of car a couple of years ago, I'd have bought a brand new E36 M3 and done the same 'low content' I did with this car, ordering only xenon and the stereo. Given that I only had the choice of E46, it's nice to know that some who've experienced both would pick the E46 despite the 'relative drawbacks' of weight and luxury. <br><img src="http://members.roadfly.com/jorg/M3GTRSig.jpg">

Mperor
05-14-2002, 03:02 PM
<br><img src="http://members.roadfly.com/mperor/Stau Grauu.jpg" height=60 width=300>

Mr Practical
05-14-2002, 03:03 PM
miles I still don't feel as connected to it all the time as I did with my 325CI. One of the major reasons is that the e46 m3 doesn't really belong on city driving. Just before you get to flex it's muscles, there is a stop light or traffic just ahead. Sure I miss somethings abotu my 325CI, because it was like the little engine that could :). But do I regret for a nanosceond on getting my M3...HELLLL NOOOO.

Jorg
05-14-2002, 03:04 PM
and I can personally attest to having my butt whipped by a street E30 M3 with suspension mods, a 325i and a Maxima, for what it's worth it was my 2nd track event in any car. I expect to get passed by someone in the PCA event this weekend, it's inevitable that someone is a better driver, or has a better prepared car, or both. I have absolutely no problem with it, because I won't push beyond my ability or experience, I do not intend to hurt this car,myself,or others, or worst of all, bring out a yellow flag and ruin someone else's fun! I agree that I'd like this car lighter, more akin to that 'E30' ethic but I don't have that choice, nor do I have the funds to do all the other stuff like wheels and coilovers and R rated rubber. All I can do is pay for seat time, and make the rest of the world go away until after the run is over...

I agree BMW has turned the luxury corner, knowing what I know now, if I had the option, instead of ordering my car last fall, I'd hold out for the CSL, IF it were ever to come to these shores. Can I afford to buy it when it does ? Not in this economy, probably not in this lifetime...<br><img src="http://members.roadfly.com/jorg/M3GTRSig.jpg">

2002M3Drew
05-14-2002, 03:10 PM
the E30 M3 and the E36 M3...while the E36 is obviously better in every conceivable way, the E30 is a little less removed from the experience. The E36 M3 was a great car then, and it's a great car now.

Bcar
05-14-2002, 03:12 PM

Jorg
05-14-2002, 03:16 PM
over 3 days with 4 runs @ 30 min each per day , with an instructor who races,has a 996 and an E46 M3 ? I'll burn up the stock pads, track pads will follow in a couple of months ;-)<br><img src="http://members.roadfly.com/jorg/M3GTRSig.jpg">

DonT
05-14-2002, 03:21 PM
And you are right. It feels much more point and shoot connected than the new car, but I've got 2200 miles on the E46 and 40000 on the old, with a lot of the "at speed". plus hardly anyone has a bone stock car to compare. I do note that on the autocross course I am sure my E46 is faster but I havn't done a head to head. We plan to take both cars to O'fest. Maybe I'll have a chance while there. I guess you would have to find someone who really went back to the E36 after owning the E46. I know I would never go back to the E30(to the exclusion of the newer cars. Plus its worth remembering that the E30 M vs the E30 325is was in fact faster but very marginally

eatapc
05-14-2002, 03:26 PM
With my E36 I felt like I could drive it at 8 or 9 tenths its capability on the street and get away with it safely. It was fun to push near its limits. The limits of the E46 are much higher in every way except braking, which is good, except that when I drive it at the upward limit of the speeds that I normally consider "safe" for the street, I'm often not pushing it very hard at all. (And by "safe," I mean a proactive, defensive kind of safe: e.g., if that kid on the bike up around the corner wobbles and falls over, I've got it covered.)

It's an old cliche that it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car at the same speed, and to some extent that's the difference between the E36 and the E46. On the other hand, once you get the feel of the E46, you CANNOT go back.

Bcar
05-14-2002, 03:27 PM
been missing until you try better pads. Unless it is a low speed track and not hot out.
I could work on my braking quite a bit more with the better pads, they were tons more consistent! I didn't have to wonder coming into turn 1 if I would have gassing pads or not.

If you can swing it, it will make a nice difference that you will notice. Just a thought...

But you are correct, track time will make OUR M3s go faster!!! And by saying OUR, I mean that towards 99.99% of us on this board.

Jorg
05-14-2002, 07:42 PM
better pads. This time with PCA I couldn't pass up the relatively low (for 3 days of seat time) cost and that wiped my budget for May. VIR is such a choice circuit and I'm so close I opted for more runs.

I hope to have steel lines AND better pads by July's event.

I think I'll be quite surprised when I do go better prepared with lines and pads, for now I did the cooling of the rotors because I knew I wasn't
able to do the other stuff, and I thought cooling the rotors was the best bang for my buck first, seat time 2nd, more stuff after that.<br><img src="http://members.roadfly.com/jorg/M3GTRSig.jpg">

jim3
05-14-2002, 08:39 PM


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