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jason2
09-04-2002, 11:36 AM
It again begs the question, what the hell was BMW thinking? The new A8 is a nice clean design inside and out.

<img src="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/News/2020903.001.7.jpg">

<img src="http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/pictures/214802.jpg">

BAS
09-04-2002, 11:42 AM
I have a business partner who has a 4.2 A8 and it has been nothing but trouble. Everything from leaky sunroof to AC failure.

gtobynj
09-04-2002, 11:42 AM
I pointed out the new 7 to her at the weekend (she is not aware of the controversy over the styling) and her immediate response was yuk, what an ugly beast. Then she remarked that she wondered if it would grow on her and perhaps in a couple of years everyone would wonder what the rest of the car makers are up to. Strange, isn't that almost exactly what Bangle said?

marwan
09-04-2002, 11:49 AM
I'm liking the new 7 more and more everyday, specially with the 19" wheels! ....the new A8 is beautifull, but it's just too....generic!

lagunabluem3
09-04-2002, 12:03 PM
these two examples. Audi build quality is arguably better as well.

lagunabluem3
09-04-2002, 12:04 PM

Andy O
09-04-2002, 12:32 PM
Looks like the Q45 at the rear panels....take off the AUDI rings on the grill and it's a VW, besides it's FWD. Out here in SOCAL all the top executives of technology companies are driving the New 7, the shape grows on you, BMW did the right thing, stepped outside and created something new...Look at the new E30 from MBZ, what a joke, BMW took the lead and it will pay off!!

Jorg
09-04-2002, 12:45 PM
<br><img src="http://members.roadfly.com/jorg/M3GTRSig.jpg">

solid design. The 7 is just plain ugly.(nt)Animboy
09-04-2002, 12:49 PM
nt

CK
09-04-2002, 12:51 PM
it's like it knows it's fugly and tries to hide its face in shame.

-CK

Read up first....
09-04-2002, 12:52 PM
I love uninformed opinions... First all of the announced versions are Quattro cars, not FWD. Second this platform is unique to Audi, it's not a VW.

StoneWalk
09-04-2002, 12:57 PM
My vision of these two cars is of two fairly accomplished men.

The Audi is confident, understated, wearing a clean well pressed suit and showing just a hint that he still goes to the gym a couple of times a week to stay in shape.

The BMW is trying very hard to be young and hip, has used mascara on his eyebrows, padded shoulders on his young styled and not too well fitted suit, and he's had silicon implants in his calves, cheeks and butt to give that young and ripped look.

If I'm in the market for a big 4 door sedan, I gotta say I'd be looking at the Audi despite how wonderful the engine and drivetrain in the BMW is.

BMW should be playing edgy-styling with the 1 series, not the 7.

lagunabluem3
09-04-2002, 12:59 PM

Andy O
09-04-2002, 01:13 PM
your right, I shot from the hip, but AUDI is still from the VW group same engineering, and dated design w/o taking a risk forward, BTW have you checked AUDI unit sales A8 against BMW E38?? Not even close, AUDI dealers are still discounting heavily '01's &'02's in stock, who would want to but dated technology on a '03? Quattro is a joke who needs 4 wheel traction? I never saw a high performance racing car with AWD, have you? Quattro is VW/AUDI niche marketing and it isn't working...remember Volkswagen stands for JOKEWAGEN!!!!

lagunabluem3
09-04-2002, 01:33 PM
se many governing organizations have banned it as it was found to be unfair.

NeilS
09-04-2002, 01:36 PM
trouble telling the difference from the last A8. It already looks dated.

I don't know what the answer to Bangle's botched designs is, but MB and Audi's overly conservative approach isn't it.

jason2
09-04-2002, 01:41 PM

Andy O
09-04-2002, 01:42 PM
What a ridiculous commentary, When you lead, you always look different, AUDI in your analogy sounds like a teenager in his LEVIS and BMW in an ARMANI suit, no comparison.

nogaro22
09-04-2002, 01:44 PM
Do you think AWD was banned from all those racing series because it sucked? I think it does just fine on high performance cars (e.g., Lamborghini Murcielago).

And even using your faulty logic, I don't see how what is used on "high performance racing cars" has anything to do with daily driven large sedans like the A8 and 7 series. If you don't think AWD has any use in the real world, you need help man. 8^P

lagunabluem3
09-04-2002, 01:45 PM

StoneWalk
09-04-2002, 01:49 PM
There is no right or wrong here, just personal opinions.

I feel that tasteful and somewhat conservative is appropriate in the large 4 door luxury sedan market.

I think BMW doing the "hey - sure I look silly now but this will be all the rage in 2 years" thing with their big sedan is dumb. The right place to go edgy is from the lower end of your offerings up. You let that flame surfacing "grow" on people by selling it to the more adventurous younger folks (who tend to buy smaller less expensive cars) first, then spread elements of it to your big sedan offerings if the trend is clearly in place.

A young Dennis Rodman can wear a neon pink fur cape, and maybe pull it off, but it looks beyond silly on Patrick Stewart even if fashion really is headed in that direction.

Andy O
09-04-2002, 01:49 PM
Look at unit sales E38 vs A8 and E65 against A8 no comparison. BMW has a winner and really is pulling away from the competition, sending everyone else back to the drawing board.
Competitors have been trying to beat the 3 series since it came out over 20 years ago.
7 series is now the benchmark for the category, they have the competition beat in every category including styling, when a new 7 rolls up next to the competition with those 19" wheels guess which looks more agressive? I know which one I want to be driving.

acadia
09-04-2002, 01:52 PM
orghini, Skoda, SEAL ... VW engineering is pretty impressive as they operate more marquee luxury brands than any other car manufacturer in the world. Also, The perception in the US is that VW is run of the mill, in Europe, it's quite a different story. Also, The new VW Pheaton is a force to be reckoned. Stack it's feature list up against the S-CLass or the 7 Series and hold's it's own and then some.

I myself am an Audi enthusiasts, and I think the A8 is bland as all hell, I really wish they'd have put more of the Avanitissimo Estate Concept into the new A8, but alas, they didn't. I agree the A8 will never get acclaim by remaining mundane, the A4 should have proven that to Audi to make a name for yourself you must make a splash. Oh ... well ... but back to my point the A8 is still a well engineered car, boring as all hell, but definitely well engineered. Perhaps needs a few trinkets and alot more whistles but it's not slouch.

the BMW 7, well, I thought it was pretty interesting, not nearly as cool as the S-Class, but hell, what can you do about a car that looks like a cat coming down the rode. Those damn cat eyes, mesmorizing.

But back to Audi and VW. Audi is not VW, Audi, is Audi ... and VW is VW, but both VW and Audi both make fine cars. And VAG
(Volkswagen AG) the owner of both brands, has an extensive list of well engineered cars in it's heram. Just thought you should know before you open your mouth.

Andy O
09-04-2002, 01:55 PM
Who do you think BMW appeals to...People with vision and who like taking risks and winning, conservative styling is for the JAGUAR customers and the Bruberry tweed jackets. BMW is the leader, and with the new design has seperated from the field.
Drive around Southern California and see who is driving the 7 series professional entrepreneurs who connect with the styling and direction.
They ain't driving A8's or MBZ S class or LEXINITI's
Stand inside a BMW showroom for an hour and see who is buying the product, men and women shaping our future with technology who connect BMW design and their outlook.

Hold on Brother VAG=VW, Audi, Bently, Bhugatti,La
09-04-2002, 02:01 PM
mborghini, Skoda, SEAL ... VW engineering is pretty impressive as they operate more marquee luxury brands than any other car manufacturer in the world. Also, The perception in the US is that VW is run of the mill, in Europe, it's quite a different story. Also, The new VW Pheaton is a force to be reckoned. Stack it's feature list up against the S-CLass or the 7 Series and hold's it's own and then some.

I myself am an Audi enthusiasts, and I think the A8 is bland as all hell, I really wish they'd have put more of the Avanitissimo Estate Concept into the new A8, but alas, they didn't. I agree the A8 will never get acclaim by remaining mundane, the A4 should have proven that to Audi to make a name for yourself you must make a splash. Oh ... well ... but back to my point the A8 is still a well engineered car, boring as all hell, but definitely well engineered. Perhaps needs a few trinkets and alot more whistles but it's not slouch.

the BMW 7, well, I thought it was pretty interesting, not nearly as cool as the S-Class, but hell, what can you do about a car that looks like a cat coming down the rode. Those damn cat eyes, mesmorizing.

But back to Audi and VW. Audi is not VW, Audi, is Audi ... and VW is VW, but both VW and Audi both make fine cars. And VAG
(Volkswagen AG) the owner of both brands, has an extensive list of well engineered cars in it's heram. Just thought you should know before you open your mouth.

acadia
09-04-2002, 02:03 PM
S-Class would be the benchmark, although, expensive as all hell,
I haven't seen either Audi or BMW touch this poor man's bently. Furthermore, 2003 S600 does 0-60 4.6 secs. Hate to see what the AMG 2003 S55 has under it's sleeve.

Pete S4
09-04-2002, 02:09 PM
What's this facination with who's driving what car? Just because one sort of person is precieved to drive a certain type of car doesn't make it better. Heck, it just often makes it more expensive.

It seems to me you regard these MBA technology types as making very astute buying choices. Since you precieve that they buy BMWs, it must make BMWs the best right? Well I ask you to consider who played a large role in binging us the Internet bubble, the telecom meltdown, and our recent dubious corporate finance scandals.

I love German cars. BMWs are some of my favorites cars. I happen to own an Audi right now...namely because they aren't the default German car they every one buys, I car modify my turbo car much cheaer than a BMW, plus the AWD does a nice job in winter and keeps my 350 HP/400 ft-lbs of power nicely planted on the street.

nogaro22
09-04-2002, 02:25 PM
While you're at it, be sure to send a letter to the Lamborghini engineers to let them know that AWD sucks and doesn't belong on a high performance car; and a letter to all the racing series that have banned AWD to let them know that it isn't an unfair advantage.

Seriously, I don't understand how someone can be so adament about a specific manufacturer being the be all and end all of automobiles. BMW, MB, Audi, Honda, Toyota, et al all make great cars (and their share of duds).

Oh yeah, last time I was in a BMW showroom, I saw a whole lot of spoiled 17 yr olds with mommy and daddy. 8^P

chucklane
09-04-2002, 02:39 PM
New S55 is supercharged and is actually .1 seconds slower than the s600. New S660 is twin turbo v12. The New S63 AMG will kick every other car in this market. twin turbo v12 with over 600 horses on tap.

Andy O
09-04-2002, 02:39 PM
If it is suppose to be such a performance automobile...why do they have automatics, because their owners don't know how to drive a manual LOL

Tim C.
09-04-2002, 02:41 PM
Don't judge all Audi's entirely on your friends lemon A8. The problem with many (but not most or all) BMW owners is they know a lot about BMW but don't know sh*t about other cars and/or their love for BMWs causes them trash the competition. They are not aware that Audi's quality and reliability has come along way over the years and is now on par with the competition. The improvement in reliability is less true of turbo Audi's than non turbo Audi's but far from totally untrue. Conceited, stuck up BMW enthusiasts like yourself make it difficult for more open mided BMW enthusiasts like myself. Oh, I disregard what those dumba$$es at JD and CR say because they are not automotive bibles as they rate GM very high. GM has been building many of the biggest pieces of sh*t on the road for the last 15-20 years. Goes to show how good JD and CR are as automotive sources (they suck a$$). One other thing, anyone can get a lemon once in a while regardless of manufacturer.

Andy O
09-04-2002, 02:46 PM
Easy to sit on the sideline and talk about the hitech and internet meltdown...just a matter of getting ahead of itself....if we didn't have the technology, even this message board wouldn't exist, remember the theory of Morse, technology doubles every 180 days, don't laugh at what happened, were living in it, and we can look back and say we experienced it. Don't fight progress or you will be driving a Audi TT that sits on the new Beetle chasis, now's theres some good AUDI/VW technology
Enron, Press coverage I saw was Kenneth Lay driving a Land Rover, and the executive who committed suicide in front of his house did it in his S class MBZ

Andy O
09-04-2002, 03:06 PM
And for more my $$$$$ I will gladly buy a BMW, almost like sex...what's you start, you never get enough.

Tim C.
09-04-2002, 03:19 PM
With the exception of the new Audi Offroad SUV, all Audi models will be a clean sheet design of their own sharing absolutely nothing at all with any VW, Bentley, Skoda or Bentley and very little with SEAT and Lambourghini. This began with the new A4 (2002) and will continue with the new A3 (2004) and new A6 (2005). All of this also applies to other Audi models as each of them are redesigned. This includes the A8 when redesigned again in 2010 or 2011. So much for Audi being mass produced along with any other brand mentioned above. Don't get me wrong, BMW (pre Chris Bangle only) is still numero uno, IMO. However, this does not mean I dislike other cars. Quite the contrary. I like all German Cars regardless of brand (be it BMW, MB, Audi, Porsche, VW or Opel). BTW, just like BAS you are one of the many conceited, stuck up BMW enthusiasts whose love for BMW causes them to trash the competition. And you, too make it more difficult for us more open minded BMW enthusiasts.

Andy O
09-04-2002, 03:21 PM
What a ridiculous car to have in North America! Where you going to drive that around here? The 745 has more than enough performance and is more fuel efficient than the E38 740 it replaced.
BTW BMW is beating MBZ in F1, did you see Rakkinonens engine blow up? BMW cars finished ahead of Coulthard, so much for MBZ horsepower.

Andy O
09-04-2002, 03:44 PM
I guess I hit a nerve when I remind AUDI enthusiasts their DNA is shared with VW, therefore you have to flame me as stuck up conceited blah blah blah BMW owner Geez, go figure
You guys better round up the wagons, becaus your days are numbered. When GM takes over FIAT your Polo will disappear, and what's with dumping all your money into Lamborghini??? for what? a HALO car? how you going to cross market that brand to AUDI? BTW do you know who's running AUDI? Piscehtrreider the genius who thought integrating Rover into the BMW group made sense, Enjoy your 3 LeMans wins because they didn't translate into market share increase in the states, the biggest market in the world of 17million units,

////M
09-04-2002, 04:10 PM

Andy O
09-04-2002, 04:22 PM
If it's such great technology, why didn't they use them in the 3 LeMans victories?

Andy O
09-04-2002, 04:29 PM
And it keeps growing every day,especially when I drive my BMW and look around at the all saps who bought AUDI's the only one I ever see is the A4 in SOCAL I never see A6, see a ton of E34/39's and A8 never, alot of 7 series Obviously i'm not the only one who can see thru bad product AUDI...glorified VW period!!!
YTD sales for VW are down 3% and BMW is up 16%
MTD sales for VW are down 8% and BMW is up 17%
Figures don't lie, black and white, my brain got bigger with these facts, and yours got a whole lot smaller!!!

nogaro22
09-04-2002, 04:31 PM
You must not be using much of that "big brain" of yours.

shep01
09-04-2002, 05:01 PM

Andy O
09-04-2002, 05:01 PM
Because it's not a true racing car, a ridiculous marketing idea by the AUDI brain trust

lurking
09-04-2002, 05:06 PM

Andy O
09-04-2002, 05:09 PM
Even Honda sponsors 2 teams in Formula 1 where's AUDI??? Doesn't want to be embarrased all over the world with their weak engines. Even Pietreider said "VW/AUDI will abandon LeMans and develop an F1 engine...in the future probably around 2010 because we do not have the technology to compete" read the press release.
Why do you think Mario Thiessn left AUDI to come to BMW? he had nothing to work with.

StoneWalk
09-04-2002, 05:11 PM
It's really kinda funny watching a young kid lecture people about what everyone should want in a $70k 4 door luxury sedan.

In a way, I agree with his position. BMW has built the 7 series styled to appeal to young edgy snot nosed kids... Alas, not many of them are actually in a position to buy and own a luxury sedan other than telling dad it's "bitchen".

nogaro22
09-04-2002, 05:12 PM
Amazingly you seem to be getting dumber by the minute!

Julie
09-04-2002, 05:42 PM
else's very valid comparison and opinions, I would assume no female would reduce herself in your "one position only" trists. People like you are the reason I bought a 996.

Tim C.
09-04-2002, 05:55 PM

Andy O
09-04-2002, 05:57 PM
Working on my Masters 44 years old married 1 son, no debt live in SOCAL House paid for $460K appraised value $100k in the bank...what's your MO??

RS6
09-04-2002, 07:20 PM
Say what? Too funny for words. You sound ridiculous. Do you talk like a
marketing middle-manager to your family too, or do you just save it for
the Roadfly forums?

The BMW advertising department covets image-obsessed folks like you.

RS6
09-04-2002, 07:32 PM
The "theory of Morse"? Are you trying to talk about Moore's Law?

Moore's law is not some blanket techno-marketing speak and it most
certainly does not hold that "technology doubles every 180 days". It
is a very specific model for transistor density on silicon over time, look
it up sometime -- and note that some experts now think it's off course.

I suppose you're one of the supposed elite techno-visionaries that I'm
to emulate in terms of automotive purchasing habits?

T.

RS6
09-04-2002, 07:45 PM
News flash: everybody thinks the "top executives of technology companies" are
a bunch of [Oops!] and criminals now. Nobody cares about them, or what they
drive. Time to sell your CEO Cult baseball card collection.

RS6
09-04-2002, 07:47 PM
Nobody has a monopoly on quality - or lack thereof, as the case may be.

in my pocket BTW what are u smoking? send me some
09-04-2002, 07:51 PM

25 Zai
09-10-2002, 06:23 PM
The new A8 looks pretty much like the new VW Phaeton (did i spell it right?hah) I think the new 7 series looks cool in person tho, not as bad as u guys said.


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