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drkool
04-15-2003, 06:53 AM
Did anyone read the S4, M3, C32 comparo?

Comments?

-p

bmwta
04-15-2003, 06:57 AM

Glenn
04-15-2003, 07:32 AM
I didn't think the comparison was particularly even-handed. No mention of SMG whatsoever!?; the M3 was penalized for having a small back seat; no mention of the convertible M3 (the others do not have cabs available). Reminds me of US News and World Report's College ranking list; it has to have a new number one every year in order to sell copies, even if the criteria are faulty.

Just my 2 cents

LilM
04-15-2003, 07:43 AM
all.....they just like the new guy on the block better that's all. When the M3 gets a V8 it will once again be on top IMO.

N Demand
04-15-2003, 07:58 AM
people on this board will be jumping ship to the S4

However good for audi

ImolaM3
04-15-2003, 08:26 AM
Who cares what C&D says about the M3, we still love this car so much. The S4 will never come close to the M3 in performance and handling etc., and don\'t forget looks.

The only reason why the S4 beat the M3, as per C&D, is because of the V8 engine??

This is just my opinion...

<br>2002 Imola Red M3
No options, don't need the extra weight.

RS6 won, S4 won, etc. Also, as for handling...MHM3
04-15-2003, 08:40 AM
how can the audi have best handling when it had lower skidpad and slalom numbers and they commented on its tendency to roll. i didn't quite understand that.

I know there's more to handling than skidpad and slalom, but they didn't show anything in the article to explain why it "handled better" than the M3 and C32.

eatapc
04-15-2003, 09:00 AM
\"The C32 vs. M3 vs. S4 article was the most embarrassing comparison I\'ve ever read. I assume Patrick Bedard, who gets the byline, is a bit embarrassed himself. May I remind you of the word \'driver\' on the cover of your magazine.

\"The M3 beats the S4 in every meaningful performance category, and yet it comes in a weak second. The M3 is faster and yet the engine loses two points to the Audi. The braking is better, and yet it\'s a tie in the points. Roadholding and lane change honors go to the M3, but again the Audi rates two points higher in handling. In the \"fun to drive\" category the Audi --again! -- beats the M3 by two points.

\"When Consumer Reports rates cars I understand the bias, but I honestly don\'t understand where your heads are at anymore. Who is your audience? Not people who love driving.\"
<br><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:Charcoal'>10/01 Jet Black SMG coupe, New Jersey, exit 50B</span></p>

Jason
04-15-2003, 09:08 AM
because we all know the trick to building a better handling car is make it heavier and front heavy. :-/

photon4
04-15-2003, 09:09 AM
Granted it's not a S4, but I also drive a A4 QM sport 6 speed in addition to my SMG coupe, and I love both cars. If I had to have only one here in Iowa I'd probably take the quattro for the AWD. If it was only to blast down a country road, I'd take the M3, or a 911... They're both great cars.

was I'd love to see lap times on a road courseMHM
04-15-2003, 09:14 AM

Jason
04-15-2003, 09:21 AM
The M3 beat the S4 by 1.8s on Hockenheim, a large difference. For comparison, the Porsche 996TT and GT2 are separated by 2s on Hockenheim.


<img src="http://members.roadfly.com/jason/s4vsm3p4.jpg">

JMS
04-15-2003, 09:26 AM
The lower price of the S4 bumped it to victory. You have to give Audi some credit. Their engineers have stepped it up a bit.

JMS
04-15-2003, 09:29 AM
You state ..."The S4 will never come close to the M3 in performance and handling etc." Come on. I am a BMW fanatic, but the S4 is very very close in all categories. And the Audi does it for less $.

e of press and competition will be good for usMHM3
04-15-2003, 09:30 AM
for future models...it means the manufacturers have to step it up a notch every time they update the models. That's the only good thing I see about this article, but its not insignificant.

JMS
04-15-2003, 09:36 AM
BMW's ///M division is always way ahead of the curve. The M3 and M5 have both been around for a few years now and the competition is just catching up. You guys should be flattered that everyone aims for BMW's ///M cars. BMW sets the bar and others shot for it--- and most miss dramatically. However, Audi has stepped it up and this car will give the M3 serious competition.

SteveRiley
04-15-2003, 10:09 AM

eatapc
04-15-2003, 10:13 AM
I don\'t dispute giving the Audi points for being cheaper. What I dispute are the points it got for no apparent reason. By merely reversing the points for engine and handling the M3 would win. Give the M3 a point for better braking. Give the M3 a point for better styling (much better). And certainly give it more points for \"fun to drive.\" Now you have the M3 way ahead.

It seems that the subjective ratings were biased against the M3 for no \"apparent\" reason in spite of the hard evidence of the test track.<br><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:Charcoal'>10/01 Jet Black SMG coupe, New Jersey, exit 50B</span></p>

Trex
04-15-2003, 10:17 AM
First, the article states, "Audi turned over a European-spec S4 for review". Now, we are lucky with our USA spec M3s because they come very very close to being equal to the Euro-Spec models. I am not sure what Audi will be bringing over to the US as an S4 model.

But I just don't get it and I having not been getting it for a long time: these magazines go through all the testing to develope hard scientific numbers and then throw them out to count points subjectively. This was a test of adrenaline cars but as I looked at performance numbers, Audi was not the number one vehicle in so many of the categories. And what is with that number for top gear 30-50 and 50-70? The slush boxes kick down, correct? Duh.

But I don't buy my cars because of what the magazines say. In that regard Car and Driver is heaped in with Consumers Reports. In fact, I believe the quantative approach IS all wrong. It IS a subjective process. That's why I think the magazines ought to chuck out a lot of the useless numbers. But then, would I agree with the magazines conclusion? No, just that they do have a right to be subjective about their analysis. The V8 in the Audi will make BMW put a V8 into the next M3 (M4?). And that new M3 will be a better all-around car than the current one. That to me is progress. And I'll buy one.

And I still maintain that you shouldn't keep a VW beyond it's warranty.

eatapc
04-15-2003, 10:17 AM
It\'s about payola. The M3 won the comparison, as far as I\'m concerned. What the review means is that BMW will have to step up its advertising, kickbacks, press junkets and graft to Car & Driver.<br><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:Charcoal'>10/01 Jet Black SMG coupe, New Jersey, exit 50B</span></p>

Jason
04-15-2003, 10:28 AM
<i>First, the article states, "Audi turned over a European-spec S4 for review".</i>

The deal probably was Audi would lend a Euro spec S4 to C&D so they could be the first US mag with a roadtest but catch was the S4 had to win the comparo. Wouldn't surprise me...

bmwm3coupe
04-15-2003, 10:44 AM
CR claims that by buying the stuff they can "honestly" tell what they think about the product. I do not know for a fact this is the case for CR, but I agree with Jason that "normal" car magazines are very biased.

<br>William
Richardson, Texas
2002 M3 Coupe - Alpine White/Black Leather/SMG

topgear996
04-15-2003, 11:13 AM
what's msrp on it?

btw, why is every1 in such denial mode? c&d folks expressed their opinion, as they have in many yrs, and accepting defeat is a good quality to have. why such profanity & insult to c&d folks? as long as they rate bmws #1 all the time they have their heads screwed in right but as soon as some other car rates higher than M3 then the test is invalid and c&d is getting paidoff more by audi?

m3 is a damn fine car but there'll be better cars introduced - esp 2 yrs after M3 came out - so face the reality and dont be so upset and crying foul!

juno
04-15-2003, 11:25 AM
It's one article. This board is starting to look like all those other boards where people make excuses for why their cars get "beaten" by the M3 in magazine comparisons. Look at all the magazine articles that fawn over the M3. Automobile recently called the M3 the Best GT car. They also said the M3 was their favorite car from their favorite car company. EVO picked the M3 as runner-up for 2001 EVO Car of the Year, second only to the Pagoni Zonda (the M3 beat the 911, Murcielago, Evo 7, Lotus Elise, SL55, and more). Car magazine wonders if maybe the M3 is the "ultimate super saloon thus far"? I could go on and on.

If 10 babes think you're hot and one thinks you're not, do you spend all your time convincing the one, or banging the other ten?

Jason
04-15-2003, 11:26 AM
Every time this topic comes up there's always someone who spouts the "you're in denial" BS. Read the complaints, bogus journalism. 3864lbs, 60/40WD and it handles better? Hello, is this mike on? The slalom and lap times speak for themselves. They can praise the Audi for better interior, exterior, ergonomics, comfort, etc. etc., but after staring better performance numbers from BMW in the face they call the Audi the better performer? That sets a bad precedent IMO and it's no wonder cars are getting more obese and full of stupid gizmos. These old farts from US mags rate sports GTs on the merits of how badly the ride irritates their hemorrhoids. Gimme a break.

If better cars are introduced then by all means go nuts praising them, but a 3864 pound behemoth with lousy weight distribution ain't the car.

JMS
04-15-2003, 11:29 AM

JMS
04-15-2003, 11:32 AM
The Audi team has raised the bar my friend. You must face the facts. Also, you have never driven the new S4 so you really cannot make any kind of statement regarding performance differences of the M3 and the S4. These guys have driven both cars. My guess is... you probably won't drive the new S4 in fear that it may actually impress you.

Jason
04-15-2003, 11:40 AM
but no 3864 pound car has ever excited me for a performance driver nor will it ever. Physics my friend. I hope Audi really does build decent relatively lightweight cars with proper weight distribution so I can buy them instead of Bangle's crap.

"you probably won't drive the new S4 in fear that it may actually impress you"

Yes, you figured it out tough guy, im shaking in my boots. The thing might crack the concrete in the damn street it's so heavy.

jhso
04-15-2003, 11:46 AM
2 secs @ Hockenheim and 0-100km slower by .4 sec... that's a freakin eternity... and we all know that gluttony is not a good thing for handling and audi's are notoriously porky. <br>-----------
<img src="http://members.roadfly.com/jhso/sig.jpg">
<img src="http://www.francesucks.com/125x65.gif">

together. RevHigh
04-15-2003, 12:00 PM
lol-tough guy to JMS, he is nothing but a little nancy boy.

JMS
04-15-2003, 12:10 PM
not replying to your idiotic post any longer. This will be my last reply. Have a nice life or lack there of.

eatapc
04-15-2003, 12:32 PM
And this kind of deal doesn\'t have to be overt; it\'s unspoken.

I\'m familiar with high-end audio reviewing, and I know what a cesspool of bias and favoritism it is. Even without outright payola, there is a problem with subjective reviewing. Those who do you favors get a quid pro quo. In many cases, the writers don\'t even realize that they\'ve lost all objectivity.

In high-end there is a mantra to \"trust your ears.\" With cars it\'s \"trust the seat of your pants.\" And when the test numbers prove that your subjective impression is wrong, what else can you do? Just ignore the facts.<br><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:Charcoal'>10/01 Jet Black SMG coupe, New Jersey, exit 50B</span></p>

2003_M3
04-15-2003, 01:16 PM
article reports better performance numbers for the M3 across the boards, but the overall rankings seem completely subjective. So I ask you, based on the article (I assume you've read it) do you consider the S4 a 'better' car than the M3? if so, why? I ask because everyone I've spoken to who's read it doesn't come to the same conclusion as C/D.

2003_M3
04-15-2003, 01:18 PM

l.charlton
04-15-2003, 02:29 PM

carbonragtop
04-15-2003, 02:41 PM

BHairsto
04-15-2003, 02:50 PM
I don't have a problem with C&D liking the Audi better, even for subjective reasons--there is a lot about driving experience that is subjective. I do, however, have a problem with the article's apparent contradiction of C&D's past infatuation with the M3. All of the things they supposedly loved about it before (racy engine, firm suspension, raw driving experience, blended with an appropriate amount of civility) are now supposedly detriments--they need to make up their minds what they want in a GT. The 10 Best article and other C&D articles rave about what a rush it is to drive the M3, and the current comparision states that it's not "inspiring" to drive. This is why so many people, including myself, think the article is crap. As a former TT owner, I don't doubt that the S4 will prove to be a better total package for many people, but I think there are some truly bogus statements made in the recent article in an ill-formed attempt to justify the magazine's admiration of the new kid on the block.

juno
04-15-2003, 02:52 PM

ONLY when the M3 LOSES a comparo
04-15-2003, 03:42 PM
When the M3 was chosen over the Z06 and 996, both of which turn faster track times and have better acceleration, in Road & Track's article because it had a back seat, nobody here complained.

When it beat the CLK55 using the same criterion as in the current issue, nobody whined about the "subjective" nature of the review; apparently, reviews are *only* subjective when the M3 loses!! Yeah, that's it!!

What a bunch of insecure babies. Grow up.

by performance numbers.
04-15-2003, 03:50 PM
Even when the M3 has won, it has won by a *combination* of factors, not only because of its performance numbers. See the CLK55 comparison, for example.

JL635
04-15-2003, 05:08 PM
<br>
Justin L./John L.

'88 635CSiA (original owner)
'97 Lexus ES300
'02 Jaguar X-Type
'67 Indy-500 Camaro Pace Car

l.charlton
04-15-2003, 05:19 PM

bmwta
04-15-2003, 07:26 PM

bmwta
04-15-2003, 07:31 PM


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