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wariorlax
10-26-2003, 06:52 PM
Three weeks ago, my 01/03 prod M3's died at 10k mi. The dealership farted around for three weeks, replacing the vanos, and then the cams. They stated that they "Wanted to excercise every option before they swapped the engine." Thanks, I guess I will just drive the loaner bone stock toyota camry around 5+ weeks. UGH!! So they tell me the regional rep came down to check out my car the other day, he said to replace the engine with a rebuilt. They are telling me I won't have my car for at least another two weeks now. On top of all of this, when it went in with the spun bearing, I told my svc rep to look at the differential because it was making a loud grinding noise around slow turns. I allready had it replaced once at 2k miles. When my service rep called to let me know they were going to swap the engine, he also told me that he would not be doing anything to the differential. I asked why and he told me that when the regional rep came to look at the car for its engine, he brought up how I was complaining about the differential making the grinding noise in turns. The regional rep told my svc rep to tell me "It is a street legal race car, it is normal for the differential to make that noise." WTF! I have drove in other m3's before and never heard anything out of the differential. Am I wrong? Do any of you guys have the "grinding noise" from your differentials? What would you guys do in this situation? I just think this whole thing is rediculous. I have never had so many problems with a car, new or used. I sometimes almost wish for my 2000 328i back, never had a problem from day one. BMW service just plain sux, and dealership service sux 10x more. Bmw makes the best cars, but their service is just the pitts. Any comments greatly appreciated, thanx in advance guys.

T-Bone
10-26-2003, 07:15 PM
is there another dealer close by. sounds like the one you are using has no clue wtf they are doing.

just my opinion<br><img src="http://members.roadfly.com/t-bone/BMW3SM.jpg" height=154 width=300>

T-Bone
03 M3 SMG 19s
PhatNoise
Chicago, Il

JIO
10-26-2003, 07:17 PM
not all the grinding, etc. I'd try a different dealer.

mjs1
10-26-2003, 07:35 PM
<br><p><font face="Fixedsys">

I live in a van down by the river.
</font></p>
<img src="http://members.roadfly.com/mjs1/sig3.jpg">

Tailback2
10-26-2003, 07:45 PM
I'm at 12K now and I haven't heard it since.

spinmaster
10-26-2003, 07:45 PM
It happens to many since the oil is different from standard 3 series diff oil.
Search the board for the right part # and see if your 1200 mile service used the right one.

You may be in the following cycle many of us here experienced.

1. Right diff oil from factory
2. Your (your favorate explitive here) dealer puts in wrong oil in the diff during the 1200 mile service
3. Diff makes noise, eventually fails if not remedied
4. Your moronic dealer hears your complaints and replaces the diff
5. puts in the wrong oil again.
6 repeat from 3 until you go mad, or they think you're crazy hearing these noises.

jason2
10-26-2003, 07:51 PM
NY Attorney General. Your choice, new car or full refund. Just send a certified letter to BMWNA and mail <a href="http://www.oag.state.ny.us/complaints/pdfs/newcar_lemonlaw_request_arb_form.pdf">this form back to the AG's office</a>. Done deal, take the winnings....



<a href="http://www.oag.state.ny.us/consumer/cars/newcarlemon.html">http://www.oag.state.ny.us/consumer/cars/newcarlemon.html</a>

StoneWalk
10-26-2003, 08:07 PM
Don't believe out of service time works for lemon law if the car is 2+ years old.

This in no way excuses BMW from standing behind the warranty.

Also note how the regional rep is acting exactly like we say: Their job is NOT to be an expert who gets cars fixed right. Their job is to control access to expensive repairs by whatever means they can find.

Sad.
<br>
StoneWalk, Ventura California
<img src="http://members.roadfly.com/stonewalk/M3lagunaSeca2a.jpg">

StoneWalk
10-26-2003, 08:09 PM
Still may not apply here.
<br>
StoneWalk, Ventura California
<img src="http://members.roadfly.com/stonewalk/M3lagunaSeca2a.jpg">

CK
10-26-2003, 08:10 PM

StoneWalk
10-26-2003, 08:28 PM
BMW did the same thing when my bearings fried.

I took it in with the completely standard death-clatter, and even gave them a nice print out of the oil analysis showing highly elevated lead levels which we've found are a marker for bearing problems.

It took them 8 days and 3 regional rep visits to decide to do the obvious: Drop the oil pan and look for shavings, plus examine the bearings.

And we all know what was found (like several hundred other identical cases).

But up front, the theories advanced by the "expert regional tech rep" were:

1. "I don't think I hear anything - maybe it's just normal".
2. "OK, maybe there's a noise - maybe it's the cam or something".
3. "Well I _guess_ after thinking about it for over a week and driving it three different times, perhaps we can look at the oil pan".

It makes me wonder: How many times have the reps personally heard the death rattle, seen the fried bearings and had to order new motors vs how many "cam problems" have they found?

Just how hard is it to hear the noise, and go immediately to the most likely cause? It's _easy_ - put car on lift, remove plastic covers, drop pan, look inside. Then you _know_ 100% sure if you've got a "cam problem" or not.

Hey BMWA - at what point do you feel stupid about having the reps chase ghosts? How much money do you spend on their time and pointless tests trying to find any other cause other than the obvious?

How many weeks of rental cars have you paid for as a car with an obvious and well known problem sat on a dealer lot with the _same_ tech rep visiting it periodically and pondering the tea-leaves of what might be wrong with it?

At what point does it makes sense to learn from what myself and others have figured out (and which your own people appeared uninterested and unwilling to go try): Test the oil on any suspect car for lead. Takes 24 hours, costs next to nothing, and will probably immediately point out which cars have fried bearings and which have the ever-elusive "cam problem of some kind"?

Does it really make sense to spend weeks of downtime and repeated hours of tech "visits" instead? And exactly what do these tech reps do on these repeated visits? In my case, the same exact car in the same exact condition was there on day 2, day 5, and day 7 when the field tech came to look at it and drive it. What was he learning on the third visit which was somehow not learnable on the first one?

Does BMWNA have any interest at all in efficiently fixing well known and easy to test for problems?

Hey - Hire one of us! We can SAVE you money and improve your customer satisfaction scores! We have _zero_ problem listening to a car, running an oil test, and telling if it's fried bearings or not. Send us to any M3 with a "strange clattering sound" and we'll give you solid reliable diagnosis in 5 minutes, with confirmation in 24 hours, and all we ask is that you give us the several-hundred-dollars per example that you usually spend on rental cars, field tech time, and remedial work trying to somehow convince annoyed customers who've been without their car for several weeks that they should say "5" a lot on the phone when your quality-control people call them...

Grin :)

<br>
StoneWalk, Ventura California
<img src="http://members.roadfly.com/stonewalk/M3lagunaSeca2a.jpg">

wariorlax
10-26-2003, 08:30 PM

Alfanick
10-26-2003, 08:31 PM
Too bad you're preaching to the converted!

wariorlax
10-26-2003, 08:31 PM
service, when they replace the oils in the car, it started doing it.

StoneWalk
10-26-2003, 08:32 PM
Public humiliation appears to be one of our best tools to getting BMWNA to wake up and smell the coffee.

That, and losing lots of money in repeatable ways (which is what I'm trying to point out to them that they're doing here).
<br>
StoneWalk, Ventura California
<img src="http://members.roadfly.com/stonewalk/M3lagunaSeca2a.jpg">

wariorlax
10-26-2003, 08:36 PM

wariorlax
10-26-2003, 08:39 PM

wariorlax
10-26-2003, 08:40 PM

wariorlax
10-26-2003, 08:42 PM

jason2
10-26-2003, 08:44 PM

jason2
10-26-2003, 08:46 PM
I've helped family members through two lemons, talked to several others who went through the process and even the infamous Alex from this board won in NY even though he beat the piss out of his M3.

StoneWalk
10-26-2003, 08:46 PM
A patient staggers into the emergency room, bleeding profusely from a large hole in the center of his chest and gasping for air as he points to his chest and begs for help saying "I've been shot!"

Nurse Dealertech ushers him in, asks him where it hurts and gets him onto a bed. Alas, she's not allowed to actually touch the patient, so she pages Doctor BMWNAtechrep.

A few hours later, Doctor BMWNAtechrep wanders in to have a look around.

"Doctor! We've got a very sick man over here - come look!"

"Hmmm... He doesn't look too bad. What's the complaint?"

"Well doctor, there's all that blood there, and he seems to be having trouble breathing, and then there's that big hole in his chest - you're the expert, but the patient seems to be gasping something about 'gunshot'..."

"Gunshot? Never seen one. At least not that I'll admitt. And all those were self inflicted and thus not covered by insurance. Replace his kidneys and see if his condition improves. I'm off to get some lunch."

"OK Doctor BMWNAtechrep - whatever you say"

[time passes]

"Ah, DoctorBMWNAtechrep! I see you're back. Come look at the patient here. We replaced his kidneys, but they looked ok, and he still seems to be bleeding from that large hole in his chest. He's also getting a bit more pale, and he's getting agitated - see how he's shaking his fist weakly at you?"

"Ah - fist shaking! That's a sure sign of alzheimers - when it gets bad they become irritable. Run tests for it, and get back to me!"

[time passes]

"What? Alzheimers is negative? OK. Let me actually take a look at that supposed hole in his chest. Oh my - what have we here? By goodness he's bleeding. Wow. Who would have thought. OK. Send him to surgery and get that bullet-looking thing out of him and sew him up. Boy that'll be expensive to do - good thing I checked for every other possibility before spending the hospital money on an expensive surgery!"

"Don't forget to remind him that we want perfect scores on the post-op recovery quiz!"

"Next patient please!"
<br>
StoneWalk, Ventura California
<img src="http://members.roadfly.com/stonewalk/M3lagunaSeca2a.jpg">

situation in your area? - Alfanick
10-26-2003, 08:49 PM

StoneWalk
10-26-2003, 08:49 PM
Yep - shake the lemon tree at them right away. It will get them motivated to fix it, and if troubles persist it gives you the option of getting either a new one or going off to get something else.

It'll also motivate BMWNA to take less than months of time to get on these things, which helps everyone.

Fried bearings can be listened to and detected in 30 seconds by anyone with a brain who's heard it before.

<br>
StoneWalk, Ventura California
<img src="http://members.roadfly.com/stonewalk/M3lagunaSeca2a.jpg">

wariorlax
10-26-2003, 08:49 PM

StoneWalk
10-26-2003, 08:51 PM
Nearest fire is about 10 miles from me. Lots of soot and ash, really funk looking sunset, messed up traffic, but otherwise ok in my area.

But folks a ways inland from me are having a heck of a bad day. Hopefully the winds will turn soon.

Meanwhile, my M3 is snug and safe in the (tile roof) garage :)
<br>
StoneWalk, Ventura California
<img src="http://members.roadfly.com/stonewalk/M3lagunaSeca2a.jpg">

wariorlax
10-26-2003, 08:52 PM

wariorlax
10-26-2003, 08:57 PM
what automaticly makes my car a lemmon? The fact that it will be in the shop for over 30 days? If that is true, when do i make the claim? On the 30th day or now? Also how did alex's fall into the lemmon catagory? Thank you so much.

Sphynx
10-26-2003, 08:58 PM
Lemon it...Make them pay for your time!

StoneWalk
10-26-2003, 09:05 PM
I think, as with most legal things, you have to wait for the 30 days out-of-service to happen, then you file. You of course can notify BMW about your intent right away, which might get them moving...

Alex was our pet-immature-snot-nosed-rich-kid who's daddy bought him one of the first 2001 M3's, and which he then flogged the living crap out of. He did have a few legitimate problems in the first few months, but then he also went through something like 3 clutches, a gearbox, a couple differentials, etc. After a while, his dealer got tired of replacing the clutches he fried while doing smoky burnouts to impress his teenage friends, so they dumped his DME looking for proof of abuse.

Well, the DME doesn't have timestamps, and though it showed something like 17 minutes of elapsed time above 7900 rpm and peak rpm's in the 8300 region, when BMWNA took Alex to court and tried to void his warranty (and thus stop giving him more free repairs) Alex used his daddy's big fancy lawyers to show that BMWNA couldn't prove squat with the DME dump - that from a legal standpoint it was quite possible that all 17 minutes and 8300 rpms happened when the car was in BMWNA's hands, and they the letter of the lemon law had been violated - too much out-of-service time. BMWNA ended up buying back Alex's heavily abused car for a handsome price and Alex went on to play with a Z06 which for all we know he's now using daddy's lawyers to sue GM about.

The moral of this story is twofold.

1. Rich idiots can abuse the legal system and get away with legitimate car abuse.

2. BMWNA can be sued about lemon-law and attempt-to-void-warranty stuff, and they can be beaten _badly_ in NY court if you have good representation, even if (in this example) BMWNA is _right_ about the abuse.

3. Thus winning a straight up legitimate lemon case looks promising.
<br>
StoneWalk, Ventura California
<img src="http://members.roadfly.com/stonewalk/M3lagunaSeca2a.jpg">

jason2
10-26-2003, 09:08 PM
Yep, they'll go past the 30 day window allowed to them to repair the car. Also their refusal to fix the differential is icing on the cake.

Alex's car had a failed transmission if I recall correctly.

Yep, send a letter to BMWNA now. You should send a letter beginning seven days after the dealer is aware of the problem. Send the request for arbitration to the AG's office now as well.

wariorlax
10-26-2003, 09:15 PM
I posted this recently but I dont think many caught it. My dad does business with a bmw dealership owner in upstate NY(nothing to do with the dealership though). Last my dad was up there on a buiseness trip he dropped by to say hi. He also brought up my car, and how the engine blew and everything. He said to my dad "Yeh, we have a lot of problems with the engine in that car. BMW will never admit it about the problem and how big it is, but in the New York state area alone, they have replaced over 100 of those engines." I was in shock when he said that, and I double checked my dad and asked him "Did they replace over 100 bearings for recall? Or did he say engines?" My dad said "He specifically meant blown engines, not recalls."

wariorlax
10-26-2003, 09:18 PM

wariorlax
10-26-2003, 09:18 PM

eisle81
10-27-2003, 12:23 AM
wrong oil on the service invoice = only a typo...(happened three times already) I am sick of their giving bunch of excuses...

Ginger
10-31-2003, 01:20 PM
I'm with BMW of North America, LLC. I've passed this message on to a BMW NA National Customer Relations Representative who will be in touch with you soon.

fpa1974
10-31-2003, 02:49 PM
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02 M Coupe
Estorilblau
368S/74


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