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  • 10-15-2003, 12:10 PM

    quite true, quite true...

    <br><b><FONT FACE=courier new>Shane</FONT></b><FONT FACE=courier new><b><FONT COLOR=0099FF>
    def.</FONT><FONT COLOR=0033FF>con</FONT><FONT COLOR=CC0000>.one</FONT></b> <sub><b><FONT COLOR=CC0000>R</FONT></b>acing</sub></FONT>
    <FONT COLOR=999999 FONT FACE=courier new>02 Sterling Gray Coupe</FONT>
    <IMG SRC= ALT=signature></a>

    "Our engine is the measure of all things in Formula One" - Gerhard Berger
  • 10-14-2003, 07:04 PM

    it would be boring if we all agreed

    <br><img src=""height=180 width=180>
  • 10-14-2003, 05:13 PM

    didn't realize I was invited, we'd have some livel

    lively conversation, that is for sure...

    <br><b><FONT FACE=courier new>Shane</FONT></b><FONT FACE=courier new><b><FONT COLOR=0099FF>
    def.</FONT><FONT COLOR=0033FF>con</FONT><FONT COLOR=CC0000>.one</FONT></b> <sub><b><FONT COLOR=CC0000>R</FONT></b>acing</sub></FONT>
    <FONT COLOR=999999 FONT FACE=courier new>02 Sterling Gray Coupe</FONT>
    <IMG SRC= ALT=signature></a>

    "Our engine is the measure of all things in Formula One" - Gerhard Berger
  • 10-14-2003, 04:24 PM

    Thank you!!! my thoughts exactly!!

  • 10-14-2003, 04:04 PM

    MS locked up and went into RS\'s line ...

    it is hard to do quick maneuvers under full braking - there wasn't much RS could do.
    In my biased opinion that was 99% MS fault and almost as unforgivable as his chop on RS on the main strait.

    D<br><br><hr><br><A HREF = ""><img src = ""></A>
    <br><small>pretty cool eyes</small>
  • 10-14-2003, 02:48 PM


    looked like Ralf thought Michael was going to turn around the outside of da Matta and tried to follow him... and stopped slowing down. and as Michael went off track, Ralf just went into his rear wheel...<br>
    <HR width=512><B>CBsaksiri</B> Sunnyvale, CA
    <A HREF=""><img src="" border=0></A>

  • 10-14-2003, 02:35 PM

    Well, nobody said MS has no GIANT ego! clearly obscured his vision and came close to costing him the championship on the track.<br><img src=""height=180 width=180>
  • 10-14-2003, 02:09 PM


    So you're not coming over for beers anymore?<br><img src=""height=180 width=180>
  • 10-14-2003, 01:55 PM

    AC, no more a pawn than you my friend....

    <br><b><FONT FACE=courier new>Shane</FONT></b><FONT FACE=courier new><b><FONT COLOR=0099FF>
    def.</FONT><FONT COLOR=0033FF>con</FONT><FONT COLOR=CC0000>.one</FONT></b> <sub><b><FONT COLOR=CC0000>R</FONT></b>acing</sub></FONT>
    <FONT COLOR=999999 FONT FACE=courier new>02 Sterling Gray Coupe</FONT>
    <IMG SRC= ALT=signature></a>

    "Our engine is the measure of all things in Formula One" - Gerhard Berger
  • 10-14-2003, 01:34 PM

    On both of those examples you're dead wrong...

    ... you could choose a whole host of others that can be called questionable without a doubt, but those two are the wrong ones to make your stand on.

    I would venture to say that if in his REAL bonehead move on Sato he had caused the BAR to spin and stall (a la Montoya at Indy, for the sake of argument) Schumi would have gotten a drive through for sure. But he is a lucky man.

    As far as the two incidents you mention, please put aside your hatred and read the rule book. The pass on the straight only looked close because of the compressing effect of the long tele lens used, in fact it was completed well before the flag station.
    The move on Ralf was also legal by any standard.

    The third incident was 100% Ralf fault...he forgot to brake, helloooo!

    You accuse MS of tarnishing the reputation of the WDC but at the same time you wish there could be more wheel banging allowed.

    Why in the world would the FIA have such a hard on for Ferrari and Schumi? They have done all they could this year in ordedr to change the rules in a way that might put Ferrari at a disadvantage and succeeded. It is totally in their interest to have another team win after a now long domination by the great Italian team. I think all this hysterical conspiracy business is just a nasty turn fomented by the jealous Brit teams, you are a pawn.<br><img src=""height=180 width=180>
  • 10-14-2003, 10:49 AM

    Re: 1- I do not subsribe to the

    "Indy he makes a questionable pass under yellow-flag conditions"

    Absolutely nothing questionable about it. Some of you do not know the rules of a Yellow flag. The yellow flag ALLOWS you to pass up to the position of the yellow flag ... but not AFTER the yellow flag UNTIL a green flag is shown. Thus you can pass driving towards a yello flag ... just not after. Take a flag marchelling course and learn the rules. MS's pass was 100% legal. Even cry baby Ronnie Dennis looked at the tape and dropped the protest.

    I did the same this past weekend in a Regional SCCA race. Coming down the 3000 ft straight bumpdrafting another car I saw the yellow at the end of the straight and made the pass half way down the straight and had it completed by the braking zone. It's not when you see the flag but when you get there that you can't pass.

    "Suzuka he wrecklessly chop blocks"

    Absolutely legal read the FIA F1 regulations. You can make one move to either side of the track to protect your position. I have seen JPM do this a number of times.

    You can argue that the rule ought to be revised so that the "chop" as you call it is done much earlier than at the last minute for saftey reasons but the what he and other's are currently doing is legal.

    Blast the rule not the driver. You have obviously have heard the term "Slamming the door shut".

    On point #4 I am not going to argue with you on that. That is merely your pro-BMW biased opinion. You sound like some Liberal or Republican whinning about your political ideology.

    I own and race both a Ferrari and a BMW. I have rooted for both and have been a life long BMW fan. I have posters all over my garage of BMW race cars such as Stuckie's batmobile, press posters of the 320i Turbos, CSL's, E30 M3's.

    I am not a big Schumacher fan but I root for the red guys as much as the BMW guys.

    I think you are way too biased but hey it's a free world.

    When RS and JPM were teamed up together with Williams I frequently blasted JPM on this board as overhyped, arrogant, and too agressive. I was a RS fan and didn't like JPM one bit.

    Over the past year and half some of the folks on this board and JPM's performances convinced me otherwise and changed my view of him.

    It's his arrogant attitude and agressiveness that makes him a better driver than Ralph.

    JPM will one day be World Champion (maybe with McLaren) and then you will hopefully continue to blast RS for dusting off the tradck for JPM to win.

    Won't be any difference in RS's driving wether it's big brother or JPM in a different car.

  • 10-14-2003, 10:19 AM

    1- I do not subsribe to the \"rubbin is racin\"

    school of competition. I never said cars WON'T touch from time to time. IMO, sanctioning bodies all too often overlook irresponsible driving & contact "for the show" or explain away intemporate moves "as one of them racin' things." Contact should be strongly discouraged/and penalized in almost all cases. If people want contact, they should go watch demo derbys.
    2- The ability of MS syncophants to rationalize his his behaviour (and the endless "suck up" he gets from the FIA)never ceases to amaze me: At Indy he makes a questionable pass under yellow-flag conditions, at Suzuka he wrecklessly "chop blocks" his brother, then short brakes his brother and all we get are endless rationalizations and excuses for the fact the F1 World Champion is also a world-class dirty driver who seems to be allowed to get away with anything and everything. EVERY OTHER DRIVER IN THE FIELD WOULD HAVE BEEN PENALIZED FOR ONE OR MORE OF THOSE MOVES. Not Mikey, who can do no wrong.
    3- Ralf has talent. In the interest of truth and candor, he should be required to drive a red car so his endless "Michael's b#tch" routine can be encompassed under "team orders." As in #1 above, I'm not a beliver in contact between cars-HOWEVER, unless and until Ralfie gets the balls to punt his brother into the tall grass (and then accept whatever just pushishment is assessed to him) the next time Michael pulls another one of his stunts, he ought to just take a job polishing Michael's Ferrari & laundering Michael's driving suit. "Ralf backs down to Michael" is a news story right up there with "Dog bites man" and is a continual embarassment for Ralf, for Williams and for the sport...
    4- MS IS ONE OF THE ALL TIME GREATS, IMO. He has also done a world-class job of tarnishing his image through his endless politicing, dirty driving and ability to wind the FIA around his little finger. He's good enough to have won the world championship 5 or 6 times ON MERIT. IMO, he and his camp decided to do it the cheap and dirty way instead...<br>RichardM///3
    Delaware USA
    02'M36 Speed, 1/02 Build
    Alpine White/Imola Red Leather
    "Life is too short not to drive an ///M"
  • 10-14-2003, 01:16 AM

    Comparing F1 racing to Dirt track racing??????


    What theory is that? In racing there will always be contact for whatever reasons (mechanical failures, driver error, or just plain racing incidents). I have no dirt track experience but I have open wheel racing experience along with closed wheel as well.

    Comparing contact in sprintcars/dirtrack racing to F1 is assinine!!!! Look at yesterdays horrfic IRL crash where Brack's car disintegrated into the fence at 220 mph. Last time I checked Steve Kinser wasn't going anywhere near 200 on his local dirt tracks.

    Other than that huge [Oops!] piece of tin foil the sprint guys use I am not aware of any cutting age aerodynamics on the test of those "iron tubs". In an F1 car you don't even need to touch to lose control. get too close to the car in front going through Eau Rogue at 180 mph and your car suddenly and violently pushes you off the track.

    Skill level has nothing to do with two cars never touching. There is little difference between 20 Formula Vees trying to get through turn 1 at Laguna Seca or 20 Indy/CART cars doing the same.

    Racing is racing (at least where open wheel road racing is concerned) and contact will always be part of the risk.

    It's the agressive drivers who are always involved in the incidents and it's also the agressive drivers who are fast and win. Look at how JPM and Kimi battled at the start of the season with both of them pushing each other into the dirt. Look at some of Michael's moves against Trulli at Hockenheim and at Austria.

    Your incessant ranting about MS misses the fact all great champions want to win at all costs and at times this mean taking huge risks that backfire. Look at Senna and Prost. Look at Mansell and some of his bonzia moves. MS does the same. Piquet took plenty of people out during his career and so did many other notable champions.

    Talk all you want about sportsmanship. Yeah there are plenty of guys that have great sportsmanship. Guys like Panis, Fisi, Jenson, and so on. Great sportsmanship doesn't win races or championships. At the end of the day do you want a pat on the back for your great attitude or do you want to hoist the F1 championship trophy.

    Do you have to play dirty to win? No not always....but guys like Damon Hill may have done clean racing but in the end he won one lucky title and would never have won another even had he stayed on with Williams or gone to McLaren.

    The one exception to this rule was Hakkinen, who displayed the utmost sportsmanship in my opinion but then again he didn't have to punt MS off the track becasue during his two title MS didn't have the car to stay with him much of the time.

    As for Ralph, why the hell do you folks keep blasting him for not getting by his brother? He is NOT MICHAEL SCHUMCHER...he is RALPH SCHUMACHER.

    He will never be as good as his brother. And he will never emulate his brothers driving style (for good or bad).

    And some of you have a very short memory. Back in the late 90's MS was penalized several times for incidents including the one with JV.

    Also remember that some people feel Ralph cost his brother a championship back in the 90's when he punter dear brother into the weeds.

    Bottom line is that the fast guys who have a chance at the title will always drive agressively and make contact. Montoya does it, Kimi to a lesser extent does it, and MS will do it.

    If you're faster than someone in front but content to sit back there and have a picnic don't complain when the guy in front gets the trophy.

    You guys need to stop confusing Ralph with Michael.


    Jon P. Kofod
    88 M5 Club Racer #44
    95 F355 Challenge #23
    98 Spec Racer Ford #6

  • 10-14-2003, 12:20 AM

    I agree

    I thought MS short braked Ralph in the S.
  • 10-13-2003, 11:37 PM

    I didn\'t get why Ralf couldn\'t avoid the S turn.

    Michael went in way to hot and locked up it would seem Ralf could have reacted, braked, and followed de Matta. Instead Ralf went in hotter - couldn't out brake his brother who had locked up and hit him. Just emotion I guess.
  • 10-13-2003, 07:43 PM

    I'm not defending MS on this one... me that was a world class boner<br><img src=""height=180 width=180>
  • 10-13-2003, 05:10 PM
    Hans Stuck

    JPM just has 10 years less experience

  • 10-13-2003, 02:09 PM
    lost to JV Dave B

    I agree, MS wouldn't do that to JPM and did it and

  • 10-13-2003, 01:55 PM

    I think he wasn\'t as careful as he needed to be

    He's incredibly lucky to have gotten a point out of that drive.

    The incredibly botched overtaking attempt on Sato and nearly wrecking his car trying to overtake Da Matta (why? he already had the point he needed) both seem pretty stupid to me.

    He needed to be driving with a little more caution.

    Why didn't he get penalized? Because Sato wasn't taken out of the race (as Rubino was at Indy), and the incident with Ralf was not intentional, it was just cars stacking up under braking.

    I don't know about blocking Ralf earlier. It was a little more than a single move, but less than two. CART would have called it blocking since he didn't just move over a lane, he kept on trucking slowly to the inside, presenting a moving target. To be clean, he should have made one, swift move to the inside.
    <br>02 LeMansBlue/Silverstone M5
    98 EstorilBlue/Grey M3
  • 10-13-2003, 12:40 PM

    Perhaps you miss my point or I was unclear...(m)

    What I saw Sunday was Michael again swerving into Ralf's path to block a pass, short braking him (for whatever the reason) and in general intimidating the hell out of his little brother. My point, such that it was, is that Ralf must make a hard and (possibly) dangerous decision: continue to put up with the continual motor-sport "slap down" from his big brother (and continue to finish 2nd best or worse) or take some actions that let Michael know there IS a PRICE to be paid for the continual intimidation routine.
    It's a lousy choice to decide to rear end your brother (or any driver) who continually early brakes you or to knowingly allow your nose cone to cut his rear tires at 150 MPH when he swerves in front of you. Just as I mention from the dinosaur days of my brief, limited, and ineffective dirt-track experience: you come to the understanding you HAVE TO FORCE YOURSELF to make those who'd take advantage of you PAY A PRICE or you will be walked on FOREVER. Bad example? Maybe. Lousy situation? Sure. But Michale does what he does to Ralf knowing full well Ralf will A- back down and B- Never return the favor should he get the chance and that he, Michael, C- will face no reprimand from his toadies at the FIA. Michael would likely not try the same crap on JPM or Kimi because he knows he'd pay a price- a broken car with a chance of broken bones. In theory, NO 2 CARS DRIVEN BY MEN OF THIS SKILL LEVEL SHOULD EVER TOUCH. But it's a man's sport and Ralfie apparently lacks the stones to compete with his brother...If he won't do it on the track, maybe he ought to punch Michael's lights out off the track-if he can. Ralf has talent- it's sad to see his repetivative "thank you sir, may I have another?" routine when competing vs. his brother.<br>RichardM///3
    Delaware USA
    02'M36 Speed, 1/02 Build
    Alpine White/Imola Red Leather
    "Life is too short not to drive an ///M"
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