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  • 11-23-2003, 10:57 PM
    dinan540i

    Re: Why trash Montoya?

    LOL, I obviously never implied he didn't, but what I am implying is that I think he will come full circle sooner rather than later and win a title. His F1 career is still fairly young and I think that he will win next year if his car is competitive.
  • 11-23-2003, 08:03 PM
    arfboo

    Don\'t buy it

    DC just let Mika by out of the kindness of his heart but when Ferrari does it it's a scheming evil thing?

    The tire question....hoooooooonk! sorry charlie, just because they figure out late in the season HOW they were (cleverly) getting around the rules it doeasn't mean the y should be allowed to get away with it for the remainder. I'm sure if there had been a bone to pick on any red car it would have been done by the boys in black. Please don't tell me that "british fair play" would have prevented this!

    OTOH the reason it was brought up by Ferrari was tactical, no doubt. Performance wise B-Stone always built their tires on the narrow side of the compromise. All's fair in love and F1<br><img src="http://homepage.mac.com/booboo/.Pictures/axis.jpg"height=180 width=180>
  • 11-23-2003, 06:54 PM
    steve.tenney

    What DC and MH did was between them.

    If I remember right it wasn't Ron Dennis speaking in DC's ear, let Mika by David, for the championship.... I absolutely agree Rubens could and should have handled it differently and maybe the rest of us would not have had that vision of Todt on the radio and then again after the race. You say it's an Anglo thing, well there really aren't any other teams out there to get upset now are there? The fans in general at Austria were very upset to say the least. It's hard to say collectively what nationality those people were. At Indy, I thought Michael was trying to allow them to cross the finish line more or less together, and Rubens passed him. So I'd say Rubens screwed that up again.

    It better be a dead horse because it's against the rules now.

    Even the tire issue was Ferrari manipulating the FIA. They had no business demanding those changes, but it made Michelin take a step back and the teams were not able to do the fine tuning of their cars before Monza that might have made the difference. The rules say that the tire regulations will be set the September of the year before the season and not changed. They changed measuring the tires before the race to measuring them after the race. Norbert Haug has recently said that the FIA had the chance to say that these are the rules we are not changing them. Ferrari are the primadonnas, it's obvious.
  • 11-23-2003, 06:36 PM
    arfboo

    oops wrong place...reply to Paesan below...

    <br><img src="http://homepage.mac.com/booboo/.Pictures/axis.jpg"height=180 width=180>
  • 11-23-2003, 06:35 PM
    arfboo

    to be fair...Sterling Moss...

    ...never was WDC but is hardly forgotten! Juan will get his chance but he needs to focus his talent.<br><img src="http://homepage.mac.com/booboo/.Pictures/axis.jpg"height=180 width=180>
  • 11-23-2003, 06:32 PM
    arfboo

    wow....

    ....the whole team order thing is SUCH a bogus issue. Let me say off the bat that I did not think Austria was necessary, however no one would have been the wiser had Rubens not pulled his melodramatic brazilian hissy fit and made it look obvious to to the whole world.
    But my point is, why are anglos always bitching about Austria and for example say nothing of the Hakkinen/Coulthard incidents of a few years earlier?
    And US 02?..... shoot, Ferrari had trashed the reast of the field already, they were running 1-2...did it really make a difference who crossed the line first? did it "ruin the show"? Most F1 races are over well before the checkered flag....Ferrari decided to make it a little show, so what? FuŠk the UK teams if they can dish it out but can't take it!

    Sorry but that issue is a well beaten dead horse.<br><img src="http://homepage.mac.com/booboo/.Pictures/axis.jpg"height=180 width=180>
  • 11-23-2003, 01:44 PM
    steve.tenney

    Team orders tainted Ferrari\'s success.

    Let's face it the problem with Ferrari in 2002, and really since Michael has been there, has been team orders. Sometimes it's Rubens and the fact the he leaves it until the end and sometimes it's just that they don't really race one another. People have always been concerned when one team completely dominates the rest. I think Ferrari insulted everyone with Austria in 2002 and even the US the same year. That's why Ferrari and Michael have taken so much abuse. If Michael is so good and the car is the best, let him race his team mate. The fact is Ferrari is purely a one driver team and it hurts the rest of the competition. Personally I think Rubens did his job at Indy this year, he took Montoya off the pace. In the end, the rain made the difference, but Rubens job was to get in front of Montoya and keep him off Michael. In some ways Rubens failed because he ended up in the gravel. Rubens contacted Juan, there was enough room. The stewards made a horrendous call on that one, but Ferrari got what the wanted.
  • 11-23-2003, 01:32 PM
    steve.tenney

    Re: Why trash Montoya?

    You completely miss the point, it's just not that easy. He did have a competitive car with a great engine, but there were certain things about the car that he can't control. Tires in 2002 and a lack of downforce on the slower circuits. And then there was something known as the F-2002 with Bridgestone tires, driven by Michael Schumacher. Many of the problems he has had were not self inflicted. Verstappen running into him in Brazil in 2001 was not his fault. In 2001 he wasn't so good in Canada or Monaco, but he's figured it out. He likely would have won at Austria this year, but the engine had a water leak and they knew it wouldn't last until the end. In both of his first two years he was lost in Hungary, just not competitive at all. He even admitted that he was having difficulty coming to grips with the track. This year with an improved F25, Montoya was the fastest car on the track in the race. That race would have been different if Trulli hadn't held up Montoya. It could be said that he should have won at Melbourne this year, but he threw it away. The English press commented that Montoya was driving "out of his skin" to get a bad FW25 that far. After competing for the WDC this year, we can only assume that he will do so again given suitable equipment. Given that Juan will be at McLaren in 2005, I hope he finishes second to someone driving a BMW Williams.
  • 11-23-2003, 12:16 PM
    Paesan

    Re:

    I know I am the person that knows less about F1 than everyone here but I thought I could rate drivers, heck you guys rated Ralph all last year for not being able to keep up with Montoya speed and all. Sorry I offended your number one driver, I am sure he'll do great next year and if he doesn't there is always the Ferrari is too dominant excuse. And you know what I haven't had a boring moment in F1 yet not even when Michael got lapped by Alonso or when Hakkinen was 1.5 sec faster a lap, or when JV was winning races with by far a better car compared to the field than todays Ferrari. F1 is never boring and whoever considered it boring doesn't respect the dedication of what people went thru to get there. You want to see exciting races British and German touring is a hell of alot more interesting, you want to see who is the best driver in the world you can see them crowned by the FIA, F1 WRC and MOTO GP.

    And do not worry I do not think this is personal, so no matter what you say I don't think you flamed me or I am flaming you, you are more than welcome anytime to have a beer and watch a race
  • 11-23-2003, 11:54 AM
    Paesan

    Re: Why trash Montoya?

    He has a competitive car, he is not driving a Sauber or Jordan, he often drove the most powerfull engine, a good chassis and set fastest lap many times, got many poles but in the end he doesn't deliver that is my whole point, he could be the most awesome driver of all time ever but if he doesn't finishes 1st more 10 years from now everyone would forget about him simply because he did not make results.
  • 11-23-2003, 09:58 AM
    arfboo

    that's why Michael will always be a god at Ferrari

    <br><img src="http://homepage.mac.com/booboo/.Pictures/axis.jpg"height=180 width=180>
  • 11-23-2003, 09:57 AM
    arfboo

    agree...

    ...about McLaren not necessarily being a better package, I think JPM is a working man (at the end of the day!) and he went with the pay raise rather than the best car....for the near future.

    JPM something to prove?....sure, why not? all F1 drivers worth their salt have "something to prove", even MS, don't you think?<br><img src="http://homepage.mac.com/booboo/.Pictures/axis.jpg"height=180 width=180>
  • 11-23-2003, 09:53 AM
    arfboo

    Hold on a minute....

    For one I disagree with Paesan if he is implying that JPM is ALL hype. Face it, the man has serious talent and speed. I think he has yet to prove he has the complete package to be WDC on his own merit (That is...winning more races that everyone else) and not be up there in the standings through podium finishes.

    But your statement about Ferraristi always slagging other drivers is pretty laughable considering the avalanche of absurd accusations piled onto Ferrari and Schumi by just about every other team and "haters" of all sorts. it's BS English jealousy, nobody complained when McL and Williams were lapping the field.<br><img src="http://homepage.mac.com/booboo/.Pictures/axis.jpg"height=180 width=180>
  • 11-23-2003, 05:04 AM
    dinan540i

    Re: Why trash Montoya?

    I agree. What you see on paper many times doesn't tell the story. Personally I think that Montoya may have the most pure talent in the field. It's not just from watching his passing ability or for great pure speed, but it's also a gut feeling. This form of assesment is common throughout sports where the moddicum is "always draft the most talented player available," which means that often players who proven more statisically aren't necessarily the best pick. I think JPM given a competitive car will be WDC one day and this coming from someone who thinks he's an arrogant prick.
  • 11-23-2003, 01:34 AM
    defcon1racing

    \"Friend\", thanks for answering my questions. You

    don't have to like Montoya, you don't even have to "rate him", people who know a lot more about F1 than you are I seem to think pretty highly of him, no?

    For clarification, I am not a huge Montoya fan, it just gets old hearing all the Ferrari lovers, Michael lovers, and eledged Tifosi trash him. I'm not even a huge Willaims fan. I found F1 as broing when they dominated as I did the 2002 season. My connection to both Montoya and Williams is that piece of crap lump in the back of the car...

    later,
    <br><b><FONT FACE=courier new>Shane</FONT></b><FONT FACE=courier new><b><FONT COLOR=0099FF>
    def.</FONT><FONT COLOR=0033FF>con</FONT><FONT COLOR=CC0000>.one</FONT></b> <sub><b><FONT COLOR=CC0000>R</FONT></b>acing</sub></FONT>
    <FONT COLOR=999999 FONT FACE=courier new>02 Sterling Gray M3 Coupe</FONT>
    <img src=http://members.roadfly.com/defcon1racing/advan3.jpg></a><IMG SRC=http://members.roadfly.com/defcon1racing/14wks_sm2.jpg ALT=signature></a>

    "Our engine is the measure of all things in Formula One" - Gerhard Berger
  • 11-22-2003, 11:35 PM
    steve.tenney

    Why trash Montoya?

    You compare him to a guy with talent, Sebastien Bourdais, who finished fourth in CART. Bourdais has done nothing to suggest he will do better than Montoya in is first three years. What does racing in the US and the Indy 500 have to do with Montoya hype?

    All those excuses his rookie year? Are you aware that only 7 drivers have one a race in their first season?

    You have every right not to like Juan Montoya, but you are digging pretty deep here to trash they guy.
  • 11-22-2003, 11:11 PM
    steve.tenney

    Very true, but look at the support that went along

    Michael has made sure that he's had top technical talent along with him. A very smart thing to do. And he works very hard at developing the car. The Ferrari might have been a POS, but they still had a large budget.
  • 11-22-2003, 09:46 PM
    Paesan

    1 thing about michael

    You do know that the 96 97 ferrari were POS? moving to Ferrari when the car is called the flyin brick is not really the smartest move but it is a commitment to prove something and get paid well.
  • 11-22-2003, 09:40 PM
    Paesan

    Re: Why do Montoya

    Look the guy has had a very fast car with an incredible engine and a group of engineers that know what they are doing. In my opinion he has not delivered great results, all those excuses about rookie year are just that excuses. He had the fastest car many many times and what was his excuse, tires and reliability. Truth is that In racing you either win or lose and due to the many occasions he had he did not win an enough amount of races to justify all the talk about him. montoya is all hype because he raced in the united states and won the indy500. I understand you are a fan and like the guy but you have to wonder if Jeff Gordon wouldn't have done a similar or better job, in my opinion he would have and this is from a person that doesn't even like Jeff Gordon. 2005 Sebastian Bourdai(spell) will have more win than Montoya in the first 3 years
  • 11-22-2003, 09:19 PM
    steve.tenney

    You can\'t compare those situations.

    Webber is good and he's not really been in a top car. Williams has seen him test and that tells a big part of the story. It's one thing to drive with commitment on a race weekend another during day after day of testing. And they get a lot of time to look at how he drives the car.

    As far as Montoya's concerned, any time you win an F1 race you can't be too bad. There have been many guys who never won a race. I was hoping to see him do a little more at Monza this year, but I think Ferrari blunted that opportunity with the Michelin BS. Remember in 2002 he set the fastest lap of all time there. That eclipsed Keke Rosberg if I remember right and the Turbo era, pretty impressive.

    AC, you come across like JPM's got something to prove? What makes Kimi any different or better? Juan's got better statistics overall. A lot of what a driver does with his career, is not necessarily what he does in his first years, but how he manages his career and making the proper moves at the right time. Michael certainly did that and managed the situation to assure his success. Jean Alesi for instance, was always in the wrong place. David Coulthard should have been the team leader at McLaren after Mika left, but he hasn't done that. Juan is going to McLaren in 2005. I don't think a case can be made that he's going to a better platform than he had at Williams. McLaren made a mess out of 2003 from the standpoint of their new car...they never really had one. Now we are to assume they'll come up with top car for 2004. We'll have to wait and see if JPM has moved to the right place.
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