what say you?

You need to back up a bit. Sheehan was testifying before a congressional committee. We're yacking in a lounge for off-topic car dweebs.

All I asked was whether you agree or disagree with Sheehan's position WRT gays in the military.

Oz immediately attacked Sheehan's credibility and attempted to confuse the issue with such things as "evidence vs. opinion." Even when pressed, he was incapable of answering "yes" or "no." Hell, even SheBe was able to do so, <i>and she's a GD chick!</i>

I am not sure how you reached your conclusion that "since none of us are Marine Generals, our opinions are invalid." There is no such thing as an "invalid opinion" (though I can understand why you might think so, given yours are so frequently ignored).

Surely you understand the difference between testifying in a congressional committee and discussing the topic in an Internet chat room.

Right?<br />
<br />
"Sent from my iFag"
<br />
<br />

http://www.nulspace.com/pics/sigc6r.jpg
<br/><br/><br/>
Bitte nutzen Sie die E-Mail-Verbindung mit uns ausschliesslich zum
Informationsaustausch. Wir koennen auf diesem Wege keine
rechtsgeschaeftlichen Erklaerungen (Auftraege etc.) entgegennehmen.
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur fuer den angegebenen
Empfaenger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisnahme oder Weitergabe
durch Dritte ist unzulaessig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht fur Sie bestimmt
sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in
Verbindung zu setzen.

you preface with "I am not a military expert" yet you seem to understand the special needs of the military with the qualification "...especially in the military."

I too am not a military expert. I do have some experience. During my military time, I did not know any openly-gay servicemen/women. Looking back, I don't think I suspected any of such. So I have no direct experience on which to form an informed opinion as to whether gays make as good or better servicemen compared to heteros. My personal opinion is a "wait and see" one, but tending toward the negative - that is, they would likely not make as good a soldier as a hetero.

I will state that the overall attitude toward gays (in general, not gays in the military) during my time in the military was a very negative one: gays were not nearly so accepted then as they are now.

The real issue here, though, is not whether a gay soldier is as good a fighting machine as a hetero one. It is "What happens to a military society - be that a ship's crew, an army battalion, an Air Force squadron, whatever - that contains openly-gay members?" From my limited experience I can believe the overall effect would be a negative one from a Readiness perspective.

So... YES, I agree with the general.

See how easy that was?<br />
<br />
"Sent from my iFag"
<br />
<br />

http://www.nulspace.com/pics/sigc6r.jpg
<br/><br/><br/>
Bitte nutzen Sie die E-Mail-Verbindung mit uns ausschliesslich zum
Informationsaustausch. Wir koennen auf diesem Wege keine
rechtsgeschaeftlichen Erklaerungen (Auftraege etc.) entgegennehmen.
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur fuer den angegebenen
Empfaenger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisnahme oder Weitergabe
durch Dritte ist unzulaessig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht fur Sie bestimmt
sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in
Verbindung zu setzen.

discovered the alternative lifestyle in which we speak. (per some article I read, so it MUST be true). So the US Navy during WWII was obviously .... ;)




<img src="http://members.roadfly.com/gregory528it/sigpicture2.jpg"




In MY bag.
Taylor Made R7 TP 9.5°, RE AX 75,
Taylor Made Burner TP, 14.5°
Taylor Made Burner TP, 17.5°
Taylor Made R7 Steel 7W 21°
Titleist 670's 4-PW, Dynamic Gold S300
Titleist 54°.14 Vokey Spin Mill SW
Titleist 60°.04 Vokey Spin Mill LW
Oddessy "Dual Force 440" (bullseye with insert) putter, 34"
Titleist ProV1

"Finally, I think Sheehan's actual front-line combat and command experience uniquely qualifies him to make such a judgment."

This statement alone says, you think him the one to make the judgement. None of us are so "uniquely qualified". (to my knowledge)



OZ's "Immediate attack" was about the Dutch military lack of command.

"Any failure of the Dutch miltary to perform their appointed role, if in fact that is what happened, is more likely due to a lack of command at the top rather than any influx of gay soldiers in the ranks."






<img src="http://members.roadfly.com/gregory528it/sigpicture2.jpg"




In MY bag.
Taylor Made R7 TP 9.5°, RE AX 75,
Taylor Made Burner TP, 14.5°
Taylor Made Burner TP, 17.5°
Taylor Made R7 Steel 7W 21°
Titleist 670's 4-PW, Dynamic Gold S300
Titleist 54°.14 Vokey Spin Mill SW
Titleist 60°.04 Vokey Spin Mill LW
Oddessy "Dual Force 440" (bullseye with insert) putter, 34"
Titleist ProV1

Let me try this again.

1. Sheehan was addressing Congress. He has a "General" in front of his name. That's why he was there.

2. Roadfly's E39 Lounge <i>is not Congress.</i>

3. After asking Oz a second time whether he agreed or disagreed with Sheehan, Oz replied by accusing Sheehan of spreading "crap and hearsay." I simply reminded him that Sheehan is in the position he's in (that of giving congressional testimony) because he is the one with direct combat and command experience.

4. My original question was (and I quote) "what say you? Do you agree or disagree with a US Marine Corps general?" Distinctly missing from this question is any sort of qualifier stating that "Only general officers need reply."

So once again I find myself wondering if you are mildly retarded, or simply enjoy looking like an idiot.



<br />
<br />
"Sent from my iFag"
<br />
<br />

http://www.nulspace.com/pics/sigc6r.jpg
<br/><br/><br/>
Bitte nutzen Sie die E-Mail-Verbindung mit uns ausschliesslich zum
Informationsaustausch. Wir koennen auf diesem Wege keine
rechtsgeschaeftlichen Erklaerungen (Auftraege etc.) entgegennehmen.
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur fuer den angegebenen
Empfaenger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisnahme oder Weitergabe
durch Dritte ist unzulaessig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht fur Sie bestimmt
sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in
Verbindung zu setzen.

from the unit cohesiveness standpoint that is. A "unit" known to be "ghey ridden" may be one avoided by other servicemen and women.

Another thing to consider when assessing the General's comments. He believes the men and women under his command would never surrender without a fight. But, in the end, American soldiers were called in to clean up a mess Europeans could not handle on their own. And, with very little if any thank you by the way. For better or worst, we rely on this group of allies we call NATO and I have no doubt the General had many sleepless nights asking himself why.

Why they are not as good as (and will never be) the best of the best. <img src="http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p225/smwit/flies.jpg"height=2width=2>

1) "Finally, I think Sheehan's actual front-line combat and command experience uniquely qualifies him to make such a judgment."

Sure sounds like you are defering to the General and not accepting OZ's opinion. OZ gave a lengthy opinion. You did not ask for a YES NO answer. It was pretty apparent that OZ disagreed with conditions and explainations. This is a discussion forum. Discussions require more than yes or no answers. Maybe you should join a yes / no forum.

2)"Oz immediately attacked Sheehan's credibility and attempted to confuse the issue with such things ..."

What part of immediately do YOU not understand? OZ's 1st post was his most immediate post. OZ added items to discuss.. here on a forum for discussing things.

I know you just do this for flaming.. but really.








<img src="http://members.roadfly.com/gregory528it/sigpicture2.jpg"




In MY bag.
Taylor Made R7 TP 9.5°, RE AX 75,
Taylor Made Burner TP, 14.5°
Taylor Made Burner TP, 17.5°
Taylor Made R7 Steel 7W 21°
Titleist 670's 4-PW, Dynamic Gold S300
Titleist 54°.14 Vokey Spin Mill SW
Titleist 60°.04 Vokey Spin Mill LW
Oddessy "Dual Force 440" (bullseye with insert) putter, 34"
Titleist ProV1

I think you need to go back to Step#1. You posted "What say you?" and linked to a news article which consisted of a quote or two and a reporter's coverage. I read the article and then responded to that article, not the hearing.

If you had said "Do you agree with the General and Me? <font color=red>(Note: A No, WTFC, DGAF, Maybe, Maybe Not, Come-To-Bed-With-Me response is not acceptable)</font>", then I think you might have got the answer you were looking for. However, you asked the question you did and, silly me, I think this is a discussion forum so I responded in the manner I did.

I think I am old enough and wise enough to look up the General's credentials before I respond and, with 20 years military experience including front-line, I know enough to acknowledge that the man is at the hearing because he knows something. I will comment though that a man with as you say "Sheehan has first-hand combat experience with gender-integrated combat units. He also has what he believes to be compelling evidence (along with decades of experience commanding soldiers) regarding readiness of combat units containing openly gay members." should not need to refer to a conversation with a Dutch Chief Of Staff to add weight to what he is telling the hearing.







<a href="http://mydrive.roadfly.com/photos/pic.php?u=106744EebYY&i=3239"><img src="http://mydrive.roadfly.com/photos/pic.php?u=106744EebYY&i=3239" border="0"></a>

You state "I will comment though that a man with as you say "Sheehan has first-hand combat experience with ... [SNIP] ... should not need to refer to a conversation with a Dutch Chief Of Staff to add weight to what he is telling the hearing."

I agree 100% with you. Sadly, your comment indicates a less than thorough read of the article on which you are making pronouncements.

To wit:

"When asked [by Carl Levin, D-Michigan] "if Dutch leaders had told him that the Dutch military's performance was linked to its gay soldiers, he [General Sheehan] said, "Yes ... They included that as part of the problem.""

How would you have him answer that question? With something like "I don't need no stinking comments from some Dutch Leader to add weight to my testimony"???


<br />
<br />
"Sent from my iFag"
<br />
<br />

http://www.nulspace.com/pics/sigc6r.jpg
<br/><br/><br/>
Bitte nutzen Sie die E-Mail-Verbindung mit uns ausschliesslich zum
Informationsaustausch. Wir koennen auf diesem Wege keine
rechtsgeschaeftlichen Erklaerungen (Auftraege etc.) entgegennehmen.
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur fuer den angegebenen
Empfaenger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisnahme oder Weitergabe
durch Dritte ist unzulaessig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht fur Sie bestimmt
sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in
Verbindung zu setzen.

From an AP news article:-

"Gen. Henk van den Breemen, Dutch chief of staff at the time of the Srebrenica genocide, called Sheehan's comments "total nonsense" and denied ever having suggested gays in the army might have played a role in the Srebrenica massacre."







<a href="http://mydrive.roadfly.com/photos/pic.php?u=106744EebYY&i=3239"><img src="http://mydrive.roadfly.com/photos/pic.php?u=106744EebYY&i=3239" border="0"></a>

an emphatic NO!! The man is a bigot. Bigotted towards other nationalities and, certainly, towards other social groups that don't fit his narrow-minded view of the world despite the fact that many of these people volunteered to put their life at risk in the service of their country, something I thought you all held so dear. EOD







<a href="http://mydrive.roadfly.com/photos/pic.php?u=106744EebYY&i=3239"><img src="http://mydrive.roadfly.com/photos/pic.php?u=106744EebYY&i=3239" border="0"></a>

<a href="http://mydrive.roadfly.com/photos/pic.php?u=106744EebYY&i=3239"><img src="http://mydrive.roadfly.com/photos/pic.php?u=106744EebYY&i=3239" border="0"></a>

From a Washington Post article...

"But the Dutch Defense Ministry said that van den Breemen had never expressed such sentiments and that he considered them "absolute nonsense." <br />
<br />
"Sent from my iFag"
<br />
<br />

http://www.nulspace.com/pics/sigc6r.jpg
<br/><br/><br/>
Bitte nutzen Sie die E-Mail-Verbindung mit uns ausschliesslich zum
Informationsaustausch. Wir koennen auf diesem Wege keine
rechtsgeschaeftlichen Erklaerungen (Auftraege etc.) entgegennehmen.
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur fuer den angegebenen
Empfaenger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisnahme oder Weitergabe
durch Dritte ist unzulaessig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht fur Sie bestimmt
sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in
Verbindung zu setzen.

"Belgium, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and other nations believed there was no longer a need for an active combat capability in the militaries".

Luxembourg has a military strength of approximately 450 professional soldiers, about 340 enlisted recruits and 100 civilians, and a total budget of $369 million, or 0.9% of GDP.

The Belgian Armed Forces have about 47,000 active troops. They are organised into one unified structure which consists of four main components:

1. Land Component, or the Army;

2. Air Component, or the Air Force;

3. Naval Component, or the Navy,

4. Medical Component.


Sheehan is a fukwit besides being a bigot. With their massive military strength, why wouldn't they be unified!







<a href="http://mydrive.roadfly.com/photos/pic.php?u=106744EebYY&i=3239"><img src="http://mydrive.roadfly.com/photos/pic.php?u=106744EebYY&i=3239" border="0"></a>