+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 18 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 351
  1. #1
    Registered Member
    Location
    Raleigh, NC, United States
    Member No: 111493 rajaieq is an unknown quantity at this point rajaieq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    1,433
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes | No

    6-cyl double vanos problem assessment

    The E39 double vanos (variable valve timing unit) has a malfunction problem. This double vanos can be found on 6-cyl engines M52TU, M54, and M56, found in several model cars, E39, E46, etc, years 99-03. The malfunction symptoms are almost all subtle and mostly go unnoticed. They include lower gas mileage, lower performance, degraded emissions control, and possibly others. The M52TU engine (99-00) has one further malfunction symptom which is far from subtle. It occurs on cold weather cold engine starts and takes the form of repeated engine attempted stalls and possibly a complete engine stall. The engine rpms drop dramatically and then recover. This then repeats after a few seconds of steady idle. The problem can be more definitively diagnosed by disconnecting the vanos intake or exhaust solenoid electrical connector. If the engine stalls seize then the problem is due to the vanos. The intake solenoid electrical connector is easier to access and is located to the left (at hood) of the oil filter canister. It’s at the end of a metal cylinder (solenoid).

    We (Loach & Rajaie) both own E39’s with M52TU engines. We both had the cold weather cold start engine stall symptom and were both out of warranty. We cooperatively attempted to diagnose the double vanos failure last winter (04/05). We came to the assessment that the vanos malfunction was due to deteriorating vanos piston seals. We wrote a letter to BMW/NA in May (05) presenting our findings. The letter was sent through a dealership service manager to a field service engineer who then forwarded it to BMW engineering. We received a simple response letter in July from BMW customer service. Since BMW did not seem to be taking our letter seriously we decided to present our findings publicly in October. Just before doing so, we called the BMW customer representative who wrote us the simple response letter. It turned out he was a high level individual. At that time he asked that we refrain from going public with the information and allow them the opportunity to address the problem. This was also our preferred approach. We received a simple status update in November indicating the matter was being investigated. In January (06) we pressed BMW to provide a more substantive status. We were asked to write an email indicating our concerns so that it could be passed on to others. We were told that we would be contacted in response. After two weeks from sending the requested email we sent an email requesting feed back. We received no response. We believe the high level customer service person we’ve communicated with is sincere in wanting to address the problem but that others are making the final decision. We had been told from the beginning that BMW was quite impressed with our assessment. A high level individual had also contacted the dealership service manager, whom we sent the first letter through, enquire into our interests.
    We have given up on attempting to work out a solution with BMW and have decided to go forward and present our findings.

    Here we present our written correspondences with BMW, and some support information to facilitate a fuller understanding of the subject issue.


    Technical background references:
    How an engine works:
    http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine.htm
    How a camshaft and variable timing work:
    http://auto.howstuffworks.com/camshaft.htm
    How BMW’s double vanos (variable timing) works:
    http://www.bmwworld.com/technology/vanos.htm
    How EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) works:
    http://auto.howstuffworks.com/catalytic-converter1.htm
    http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/nov97/gas.htm
    http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h61.pdf


    Technical background synopsis:
    In this discussion it is useful to reference the following portrait of a BMW i6 double vanos engine,http://www.bmwworld.com/pics/engine/2713_832.jpg, and the double vanos pictures at the end of this document.
    The crankshaft and camshaft(s) are connected via a timing belt/chain(s) which synchronizes the timing of the opening/closing of the intake and exhaust valves with the piston cycle/position. E39’s have double overhead camshafts, meaning separate intake and exhaust camshafts found at the top of the engine (head). BMW implements a time shift scheme for variable valve timing. That is, the relative rotational position of the camshaft(s) to the crankshaft is modified (shifted). This is done dynamically by command from the engine computer (DME). The scheme is achieved mechanically through the use of helical (slanted) gears. The timing chain sprocket(s) of the camshaft(s) does not connect directly to the camshaft, but has an inner hole larger than the camshaft end. There are opposing direction helical gears at the sprocket inner hole and the camshaft end. An independent splined shaft (cup) inserts between the sprocket hole and camshaft end and connects the two components. The splined shaft (cup) inner and outer surfaces have helical gears with opposing directions which correspond and mate to the sprocket hole and camshaft end helical gears. The insertion/extraction (in/out) of the splined shaft causes the relative rotational position of the sprocket to the camshaft end to change. This implicitly causes rotational position change (time shift) between the camshaft and crankshaft (connected to the camshaft sprocket via chain). An insertion of the splined shaft causes the camshaft to rotate proportionally forward causing a timing advance (earlier). An extraction of the splined shaft causes the camshaft to rotate proportionally backward causing a timing retard (later). The vanos is a devise that attaches to the front of the engine at the camshaft end, sprocket, and splined shaft. Controlled by the DME (electrical), it utilizes engine oil/pressure to manipulate the position of the splined shaft (valve timing). The vanos incorporates a piston which is bolted to the end of the splined shaft. The piston sits inside a cylinder. There are cylinder/piston enclosed oil chambers at the fore and aft of the piston. A vanos valve controls the flow of pressurized engine oil into the two opposing chambers. The valve position is manipulated by a solenoid which is controlled electrically by the DME. The DME controls the oil pressure in the opposing cylinder/piston oil chambers to position the piston, and thus control the valve timing. The DME receives piston / splined shaft / camshaft position feedback from the camshaft position sensor. Both intake and exhaust sides incorporate the same configuration scheme and the DME controls both independently.

    The traditional structural scheme for implementing EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) is to circulate exhaust manifold gases back into the intake manifold. This method can be termed “external” EGR. The E39 i6 with double vanos does not implement an external EGR scheme. Due to the time shift abilities of the vanos, valve timing can be manipulated to allow for exhaust gases to remain in the cylinder after combustion and be mixed in with the next cycle intake air/fuel mixture. This scheme is referred to as “internal” EGR. It’s an efficient scheme, but is highly reliant on the proper function of the vanos for effective variable valve timing.


    Letter sent to BMW/NA through local dealership:

    May 9, 2005

    Rajaie xxx
    [address and contact info]

    (Loach) xxx xxx
    [address and contact info]


    xxx xxx
    Service Manager, xxx BMW, Inc.
    [NC address and contact info]


    Dear Mr. xxx (service manager):

    BMW autos with the M52TU engine have been experiencing a cold weather related problem for the past few years. The problem has been dubbed the “vanos problem”. We both have (had) this problem and are out of warranty. We’ve taken the initiative to isolate the problem cause and seem to have identified the culprit. Below is an explanation of the problem and our findings.

    The problem occurs on M52TU engine cars, 3 & 5 series 6-cylinder 1999-2000. It presents when the car is cold, ~ < 55° Fahrenheit, usually in the morning. The problem begins at the end of the warm-up period (elevated idle rpm). Thus the colder the car, the more delay after startup before the problem manifests. At the end of the warm-up period the engine begins a series of stall encounters. The engine rpm’s drop significantly, the engine shudders, and then the engine rpm’s recover. This engine jolt lasts ~1 second. It is followed by a steady idle for ~7 seconds. The cycle then repeats. This continues for ~4.25 minutes. The 7 second idle interval can also be shorter, even to a ~1 second interval. With some cars the engine will actually stall on one of the engine jolts. If the car is driven before/during the episode, the problem seems to be suppressed, unless the car shortly comes to an idle state where the problem reappears. If the hood is opened, a gear/chain like chatter can be heard during the stall encounters. The idle control valve can sometimes also be heard clunk open.
    The M54 and M56 engines share the same vanos as the M52TU engine, but don’t exhibit the “vanos problem”.

    At first we thought the problem was due to the idle control valve. But cleaning the ICV and then replacing it with a new unit did not resolve the problem. We then learned that the problem was vanos related. We realized that the problem takes place when the DME adjusts the variable timing at the end of the warm-up period. We received a tip from a BMW head mechanic that the problem was due to tight tolerances on the helical gears and that BMW was redesigning the splined shaft to solve the problem. Given that BMW has redesigned the splined shaft several times, we replaced the two splined shafts with the latest design splined shaft. There was no improvement. We received another tip that the problem was due to the vanos valves. We replaced the valve on the vanos exhaust side, and found no change. We tested the solenoids, and found them to work properly. We then decided to acquire a new vanos. We compared the new vanos with a vanos that had the vanos problem, and found them to be virtually identical. We did notice though that the piston seals on the new vanos protruded out further than in the used vanos. This we surmised was due to wear on the used vanos seals. We suspected the vanos problem was caused by a fault on the vanos exhaust side. There is a powerful spring at the vanos exhaust side which fully advances the vanos exhaust piston in the default/off state. We expect this design facilitates advanced exhaust valve timing when the engine is first started. To retract the exhaust piston (retard timing) would need significant oil pressure to counter the powerful opposing spring. Our conclusion was/is the worn leaking seals prevent the oil pressure build up needed to reposition the piston. We replaced both pistons on a used vanos with the pistons from the new vanos. The “vanos problem” resolved! We were also quite pleased to find that the car performance noticeably improved. The engine rpm’s were smoother/cleaner throughout the higher rpm range; this we know is the hallmark of the double vanos. Given the performance enhancements, we concluded that the vanos fault not only caused the cold morning symptoms, “vanos problem”, but also afflicted the function of the vanos during normal operating temperatures. This would not only affect driving performance, but would also afflict the function of the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation), which is highly reliant on the proper function of the vanos. EGR plays an important role in fuel consumption and emissions control.
    It seems evident that the vanos malfunction is due to worn piston seals.

    The M54 and M56 engine autos utilize the same vanos as the M52TU but do not encounter the “vanos problem” (cold morning stall cycles). These engines have equivalent oil pressure characteristics to the M52TU, and thus are not more able to overcome the seal leak and build the needed pressure. We thus expect that the M54 and M56 engine autos are also encountering vanos malfunctions due to worn piston seals.

    We suspect the M52TU cold engine “vanos problem” is related to the M52TU DME. The DME is likely not receiving the anticipated indication from the camshaft position sensor, and reacting in a way that causes the engine to almost stall. The DME could be over opening the ICV causing the engine to almost stall. This can also explain the ICV clunk that is sometimes heard during the engine attempted stall. We expect that the M54 and M56 DMEs function differently and thus do not instigate the cold engine stalls.

    Upon further inspection of the vanos piston seals, we’ve found that each seal is not one component but a set of two rings. There is an outer Teflon seal ring, and an inner (supporting) elastomer o-ring. We believe it is the inner elastomer o-ring that wears and shrinks, causing the outer Teflon seal ring to retract, and thus creating the leak condition.

    BMW does not provide the vanos pistons or piston seals as a separate part. A new (remanufactured) vanos needs to be purchased to acquire the piston seals. A new vanos costs ~$500. A BMW dealership vanos replacement repair is ~$1,000.
    Some owners have had their vanos replaced one winter only to have the “vanos problem” recur the next winter.

    The “vanos problem” is practically an epidemic. There are numerous M52TU owners with this ailment. It’s also evident that a routine replacement of the 6-cylinder double vanos piston seals is necessary for the proper function of the vanos.

    We would like to see BMW be more forthcoming with information on this issue. We also would like to see BMW provide the piston seals as a separate part. This would significantly reduce the part costs of the repair. Redesigning the seals so they may have a longer functional lifespan would be a greatly welcomed solution.

    As can be expected, we feel compelled to share our findings publicly. We are open to the possibility of doing this in coordination with BMW.

    Your response will be greatly appreciated. Rajaie xxx will act as the primary contact. Thank you for your assistance.


    Sincerely,
    Rajaie xxx & (Loach) xxx xxx


    Letter received from BMW/NA:

    July 6, 2005

    Mr. Rajaie xxx
    [address]

    Re: 2000 528i
    VIN BY44222
    Vanos Issue

    Dear Mr. xxx (Rajaie):

    I have your communication dated May 9th, and wish to apologize for not contacting you sooner.

    In response, we are currently reviewing the subject issue which you have presented, and will respond in more detail when additional information is available. Thank you for your patience in the interim.

    Sincerely,

    xxx xxx
    National Customer
    Relations & Service


    Email to BMW/NA

    Date: Oct 26, 05
    Subject: 6-cyl double vanos problem assessment

    Hello xxx (customer rep),

    It was a pleasure speaking with you today. I'm glad that you are willing to further consider our assessment of the double vanos malfunction. We hope BMW's engineering teem can find a long term solution for the problem. Again this is our primary interest. The last section of our original letter states clearly or requests of BMW.
    Below is a document that we have recently composed to post on the Roadfly forum. It has our letter correspondences and further supportive information.
    I'll look forward to your response and hope we can find a solution that will best serve BMW and its automobile owners.

    Sincerely,
    Rajaie xxx

    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (documentation very similar to this document)


    Email to BMW/NA

    Date: Oct 27, 05
    Subject: Roadfly post on vanos problem

    Hi xxx (customer rep),

    Just wanted to show you an example post from yesterday on the vanos problem. We’ll be seeing these several times a week from now through the winter.
    http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e39/7157613-1.html
    Be sure to read the follow up threads.

    Thanks,
    Rajaie


    Email from BMW/NA

    Date: Nov 10, 05
    Subject: RE: 6-cyl double vanos problem assessment

    Good morning Gentlemen:

    As a follow-up to your communication and our telephone conversation, I'd like to thank you and Mr. xxx (Loach) for your double vanos assessment. We are still reviewing and testing and exploring some of our own theories. It may take some time before our study is concluded. We will get back with a response and wish to thank you for your patience in the interim.

    xxx xxx (same customer rep)


    Email from BMW/NA

    Date: Dec 29, 05
    Subject:

    Good morning Mr. xxx (Rajaie):
    As a follow-up to your voice mail message of December 27th, please be advised the matter is still be reviewed and there is nothing further to be added to my early November response at this time.
    Sincerely,
    xxx xxx
    National Customer Relations
    Representative
    Phone: xxx
    Fax: xxx


    Email to BMW/NA

    Date: Jan 9, 06
    Subject: Vanos resolution status


    Hello xxx (customer rep),

    In our recent phone conversation you asked me to write you an email noting mine and xxx’s (Loach) concern regarding the vanos matter with BMW.

    As you know we investigated the double vanos failure last winter and assessed the failure was due to the piston seals and likely the inner supporting elastomer seal. We presented a letter to BMW in May with our findings and asked that BMW address the matter. We received a letter in July indicating the issue would be looked into and that we would be contacted. We called BMW in November [mistake, should be Oct] and found that nothing had transpired regarding the matter. We were told at that time that the issue would be taken seriously and addressed. The most recent status we’ve received is essentially that “BMW is looking into the matter”, with no supporting information for the status or an indication of a timeframe for a solution.

    The double vanos in question is a component of i6 engines in model years 99-03. Vanoses on these engines have been failing and getting replaced for over 4 years now, at least from our anecdotal findings. We expect BMW has been aware of the problem from some period before that. There is no indication that BMW has attempted to address this problem. Newer vanoses have continued to fail in the same manner and in as short a period as 1 year. BMW hasn’t even officially acknowledged that a problem exists. Given this history we are reluctant to accept BMW’s current status of “the matter is being looked into” without any supporting information or timeline.

    We would like to know that a scheduled project is under way; that viable seal products have been chosen; that tests are being conducted on test beds; and that a timeframe is expected for the findings to be collected and assessed. We would like to see that in case a significant seal lifespan improvement is not feasible that the seals be provided as a separate component. A vanos repair is ~$500 parts and ~$500 labor. Seal costs are in the few dollar range, and having them as a separate component would half the repair costs.

    A vanos failure has significant implications to engine function. Performance will degrade; gas consumption will degrade; emissions control will degrade, particularly with the EGR NOx control becoming dysfunctional. Also M52TU engines will suffer from cold weather cold car engine rpm oscillations and stalls. These are not insignificant engine function failures.

    We believe it is in the best interest of BMW and BMW automobile owners that this problem be addressed and a viable solution found. We would hope that BMW can see the significance of this issue and address it with priority. But given the history of this case it would be remiss on our part to believe that an indication of “the matter is being looked into” is a sign of such an effort from BMW.

    Thank you for your consideration of this matter and our concerns.



    Sincerely,

    Rajaie xxx
    xxx xxx (Loach)


    Email to BMW/NA

    Date: Jan 23, 06
    Subject: RE: Vanos resolution status


    Hello xxx (customer rep),

    Any response to this email?
    You can reach me on my mobile, xxx.

    Thanks,
    Rajaie


    Supplementary discussion:

    - EGR
    The proper function of the internal EGR is highly reliant on the proper function of the vanos. If the vanos is malfunctioning then it’s likely the vehicle is not performing EGR within EPA requirements.

    - No fault codes
    It is intuitive to ask: If the vanos is malfunctioning, then why is the DME not setting a fault code and turning on the Service Light? The DME must be aware of the failure from the CPS (camshaft position sensor). From the performance enhancement attained after replacing the vanos pistons (seals), we know the variable valve timing was not working well. Even more egregious, the EGR is also likely failing, and denoting this failure is probably an EPA emissions standard requirement.

    - Catalytic converters placed closer to engine
    It is advantageous to mount catalytic converters close to the engine so they can warm up quickly on cold starts. But this is not usually done since exhaust temperatures can reach extremely high levels which will damage catalytic converters. Thus in most automobiles, including BMW, the converts are usually placed further down the exhaust under the car. With BMW double vanos cars the catalytic converters are place on the exhaust manifold, very close to the engine. We expect this is facilitated by the exceptional functionality of the vanos EGR, insuring peak combustion temperatures are contained to safe catalytic converter levels. If the vanos EGR is not functioning well then the catalytic converters could be at jeopardy of over heating and experiencing a shorter lifespan.

    - Vanos problem on cold weather cold start
    The letter to BMW explains that the M52TU engine exhibits the vanos problem only on cold weather cold starts, but it doesn’t explain why. Vanos variable timing facilitates multiple features and benefits, including minimizing nitrogen oxides, re-combusting unburned fuel for better gas mileage, better performance, etc. Another benefit is the ability to lower unburned fuel emissions and quickly heat up the catalytic converters on cold starts. At initial engine start, the exhaust valve timing is fully advanced (early) and the intake valve timing is fully retarded (late). This minimizes valve opening overlap, thus insuring a minimally contaminated intake air/fuel mix for optimal combustion on cold starts. At the end of the engine warm up period (elevated idle rpm) the valve timing is adjusted. This facilitates a lower air/fuel mixture and lower hydrocarbon emissions that the cats are not capable of processing in their current cold state. Timing adjustments are also utilized to bring the cats to operating temperature faster. Thus it is at this stage of the cold startup cycle when the valve timing is being adjusted that M52TU engines encounter the “vanos problem”.

    - Seal replacement consideration
    It’s quite intuitive to consider replacing the vanos piston seals as a solution to the vanos malfunction. The problem is also likely resolved by just replacing the inner supporting seals. These inner seals should also be easier to acquire than the Teflon outer seals.
    Unfortunately this solution is more complicated than is initially perceived.
    The vanos first needs to be removed from the car. This involves removing the fan/shroud, crankcase valve cover, then unbolting the vanos from the splined shafts and engine head. The vanos cylinder covers can then be removed and the pistons extracted.
    It is not simple to remove the outer Teflon seals without damaging them. They are recessed into the piston seal grooves and need to be pried out. They are easily nicked and when stretched do not fully retract. Due to these complications it might not be feasible to reuse the outer Teflon seals.
    The inner seals are quite elastic and are easily removed from the piston. New ones could also be easily installed. These inner seals seem to be made form a form of Buna (synthetic rubber, Ex Nitrile). We have attempted to replace them with similar size O-rings and have found the Standard (SAE) O-ring thickness to be a close fit. It’s difficult to know the exact original sizes (inside/outside diameter and thickness) of the inner seals. The used seals outer and inner surfaces have flattened and their overall thickness has likely shrunk.
    An effective method for finding a replacement for the inner seals might be to first purchase a new (rebuilt) vanos to acquire a new set of inner seals, then to solicit professional advice for assessing the composition of the seals and locating an equivalent replacement. The same could be done for the outer Teflon seals, although it would likely be more difficult to locate an equivalent.
    If equivalent replacements for the seals were located and installation was feasible, it would still be difficult to fully assess the efficacy of their use.


    Double vanos pictures:


    Double vanos with splined shafts (cups) attached to pistons. Exhaust on left, intake on right. Note exhaust splined shaft is advanced (inserted) by default.



    Double vanos. Note advanced exhaust piston. Intake piston can move freely, but exhaust piston can only be retarded by powerful force.



    Double vanos with cylinder/piston covers removed. Spring behind exhaust piston fully advances piston by default. Two sets of seals on each piston facilitate dual oil compression chambers to control advancement (out) and retardation (in) of the pistons. Oil passage access at bottom of piston cylinder, and through cylinder cover, facilitate oil pressure control in two oil chambers.



    Two pistons, right with seals installed, left with seals removed. Each seal set is made of two rings. The outer (left) is a Teflon seal and the inner (right) is an elastomer O-ring. Vanos exhaust and intake pistons and seals are same part components.

    Rajaie
    528i 5sp 06/00


  2. #2
    Registered Member
    Location
    Raleigh, NC, United States
    Member No: 111493 rajaieq is an unknown quantity at this point rajaieq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    1,433
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes | No

    A personal note


    I’m a more frequent participant on this forum, and my name and writing appears more often in the documentation. This misrepresents the effort undertaken, and thus I feel compelled to clarify any assigned credit.
    Loach is almost completely responsible for the diagnosis of the vanos failure. I mostly provided companionship, encouragement, and sometimes faulty intelligence (information). :) Loach is a young successful mechanical engineer (manager) with a carrier working in the auto industry. He’s also a longtime wrench-head. When we first started this effort, I had just begun to dabble in car repair. Loach’s understanding of car components and his uninhibited attitude regarding modifying significant engine mechanisms was stunning to me. The first time I saw the underside of a crankcase cover was at his house when he was replacing the splined shafts and in the process manipulating the engine’s configured valve timing. I used to analogies Loach’s inspection of car components to a gypsy reading palm fortunes. I would be bewildered as to what he was looking at, even when he would point it out to me. Once the vanos diagnosis was complete we made the decision to have me undertake the writings and take the lead in corresponding with BMW. Loach was always an integral part of this process, especially when a difficult technical assessment needed to be made; like why do 01+ i6 cars not exhibit vanos cold engine symptoms?

    I’ve always thought we were a dream team. With his vast knowledge and my relentless pursuit, we were a deadly combination.
    As might be imagined we are now very close friends.
    Rajaie
    528i 5sp 06/00

  3. #3
    Registered Member
    Location
    Oceanside, NY, United States
    Member No: 33208 Asharus is an unknown quantity at this point Asharus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    145
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes | No

    I can vouch for this, when I was searching for...

    ...my E39, I looked at several 528s and most of them had this issue. After warming the car up, the idle starts to fluctuate.

  4. #4
    Registered Member
    Location
    , ,
    Member No: 93171 volatile21 is an unknown quantity at this point volatile21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    41
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes | No

    Re: 6-cyl double vanos problem assessment

    Great Work Guys!

    I have a 99 M52TU with 89k on it and also experience this problem. BMW needs to give us some answers and take care of this problem.

    Steve

  5. #5
    Registered Member
    Location
    Pembroke, MA, United States
    Member No: 4328 jimlev will become famous soon enough jimlev will become famous soon enough jimlev's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Posts
    19,983
    Rep Power
    36


    Yes | No

    Nice work guys, this should be made a permanent


    "Drive It Like You Stole It, A Sickness for Quickness"
    The Bottle Rocket "King of Spray" 2 Stage Nitrous Oxide
    410 HP, 494 Ft. Lbs. Torque, more on the way
    NOS Progressive Controller in the works!
    Dinan S1 download, RevHigh/VAC Under Drive Pulleys
    DDE Enhanced Angel Eyes, Smoked Lenses
    ///M5 Sway Bars, Front & Rear
    Energy Suspension Polyurethane Bushings
    ///M5 Gauge Cluster Rings, ///M5 Lip Spoiler
    Rogue “Octane” Short Shift kit w/WSR
    Rogue Tranny Mounts
    StopTech Brake Lines Front & Rear
    Axxis Deluxe Plus pads Front & Rear
    Staggered M Parallel 66, Xenons
    Modified CDV, UGDO
    Royal Purple Tranny & Diff Fluid
    Passport 8500, Escort ZR3 Laser Jammer
    G-Tech/Competition Pro Data Logger
    Auto Enginuity OBD-II Scan Tool
    25% Tint, X-Pel, LoJack
    BMW CCA Member Boston Chapter

  6. #6
    Vanos? Cameron
    Guest
    Location
    , ,
    Member No: Vanos?   Cameron's Avatar


    Yes | No

    Good job guys! Why is this not an issue for single


  7. #7
    Registered Member
    Location
    Lago Vista, TX, United States
    Member No: 102947 Overcomer is an unknown quantity at this point Overcomer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    641
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes | No

    And why not with the M60?


    Ross
    Somewhere on Lake Travis, TX

    Current:

    99 Silver/Grey 540i/6


    Retired:

    94 Black/Black 540i
    97 Black/Tan Z3
    86 Red/White M6
    86 Blue/Tan 528e
    85 Red/Black 318i
    84 Gray/Black 318i

  8. #8
    RMedure
    Guest
    Location
    , ,
    Member No: RMedure's Avatar


    Yes | No

    Yes, great work ...

    We could easily have new seals made ... even come up with better materials perhaps. But I suppose Loach already knows that ... :)

    Good luck. I hope something good comes out of it all.

  9. #9
    Registered Member
    Location
    Raleigh, NC, United States
    Member No: 111493 rajaieq is an unknown quantity at this point rajaieq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    1,433
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes | No

    Re: Good job guys! Why is this not an issue for single

    The answer is not so simple. It’s not just an issue of single or double vanos, it’s also a matter of which design.

    The E39 i6 97-98 has a single (intake) vanos with a design that looks similar to the E39 i6 99-03 double vanos in question. We have not inspected this vanos. The intake side also does not incorporate the spring in the vanos cylinder, so the needed oil pressure to manipulate the piston is significantly less. Thus a small leak would likely not cause a dysfunction. The DME is constantly modulating the vanos valve to maintain the oil pressure in the cylinder/piston cavities, thus a small leak will likely be replenished. On the i6 double vanos the exhaust side has a powerful spring inserted in the vanos cylinder before the piston. Thus moving the piston further into the cylinder requires a significantly greater force than the intake. A small oil leak at the seals could make it impossible for the DME to pressurize the oil compartment enough to create the needed force to overcome the spring.
    That said, the E39 i6 single vanos might very well have deteriorating piston seals. This might also be causing performance degradation. We don’t know.

    The E39 v8 99-03 has a single (intake) vanos. This vanos design is different than the i6 vanos. We don’t know much about it.

    The E60 i6 03+ also employs a different design double vanos.
    Rajaie
    528i 5sp 06/00

  10. #10
    Registered Member
    Location
    Raleigh, NC, United States
    Member No: 111493 rajaieq is an unknown quantity at this point rajaieq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    1,433
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes | No

    No vanos on M60 ??

    Rajaie
    528i 5sp 06/00

  11. #11
    Registered Member
    Location
    Santa Cruz, CA, United States
    Member No: 25422 larrychew is an unknown quantity at this point larrychew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    771
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes | No

    Great team work! Maybe Loach doesn't enjoy writing


  12. #12
    Registered Member
    Location
    Santa Cruz, CA, United States
    Member No: 25422 larrychew is an unknown quantity at this point larrychew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    771
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes | No

    My car does exactly as you describe...

    The engine does not idle properly and sometimes stalls when under no load such as at a stop light when the engine is still cold upon first starting it up in the morning.

    One of the Cam Position Sensors was replaced a few months ago following a fault code indicating this as a problem. I was hoping this would solve the problem but it hasn't.

    It's a 2000 528i with 98K miles.

    Good work guys!

  13. #13
    Registered Member
    Location
    , ,
    Member No: 71563 kbud is on a distinguished road kbud's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    20,679
    Rep Power
    34


    Yes | No

    Soooooooooo the 6 cylinders have their flaws also

    hmmmmmmmmmmm

    now everyone can stop beating up on the V8's :)


    No job well done and I hope u get somewhere with the infamous "higher ups" at BMW.

    Now we gotta get them to recogonize all the other engineering flaws with our cars.

    radiators
    seatbelt switches
    window regulators
    abs units
    trunk actuators

    etc etc etc etc



    K-Bud ([email protected])
    Baltimore, MD

    E39 - 99' 540iA Sp. (Production 11/98)
    Titanium Silver/Black
    04' Lexus GX470 (Production 10/03)
    Ash Blue Mica/Dark Gray
    E46 - 99' 328i Sp. (Production 09/98)
    Titanium Silver/Black - Retired

    Roadfly Member #71563 est. 06/03
    BMWCCA Member #312125 est. 04/03


    Mods to Date:
    RevHigh CAI w/ PC'd Gunmetal Metallic Pipe, Breyton Fr. Lip Spoiler, Fr. Lip RaceMesh Grill 5/8" PC'd Black, Hella Celis Clear Rears, Clear Fronts, Clear Sides, 19" RDSport S4's w/ Gunmetal Metallic PC'd Centers 19x9 et18 Fr. & 19x10 et20 Bk., Toyo T1R's 245/35F & 275/30R, Eisenmann Quad Exhaust, McGard Wheel Locks, Rolled Rr. Fenders, ///M5 Rr. Wheel Liners, H&R Sp. Springs, Koni Adj. Sp. Struts, ///M5 Fr. Brakes w/ SS Lines, Brembo Rr. Brakes w/SS Lines, Axxis Deluxe Brake Pads, ///M5 Fr. & Rr. Swaybars, ///M5 Black Kidney Grills, ///M5 Brushed Gauge Rings, 2.25" Magnaflow High Flow Cats, ///M-Tech Rr. Bumper, ///M5 Trunk Lip Spoiler, ///M5 Style Side Mirrors ,DDE Xenon Match Angel Eyes, Xenon Match H7 Fog Bulbs, AC Schnitzer Alum. Pedals, Denso Iridium Plugs, In-Dash Business CD Player, Blk. Metallic Int. Trim, Brushed Alum. & Blk. Lthr. Shift Selector Knob, 35% Window Tint, Homelink UGDO, Trunk Storage Bin, Carbon Fiber Roundels, Black ///M Logo Oil Cap, Fr. Plate Delete, Black BMW Rr. Tag Holder, Debadged



    "I'm gonna keep trying if you keep trying, lets keep rocking and rolling." -- Dirk Diggler







  14. #14
    Registered Member
    Location
    Durham, NC, United States
    Member No: 81087 loach1 is an unknown quantity at this point loach1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    10
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes | No

    Wow! Can I use this when looking for a new job?

    Rajaie,

    Can I use you as a reference?

    Thanks for the props! I think if you consider the workload aspect, 99% of the credit should go to you! And, I was BSing most of the time just hoping something would work before it broke!

    Still lots of unanswered questions, but BMW think that's OK. That being the case, my car is soon to be history and I will not give them another penny as long as I live. They probably assume that owners of older models are not so important, but I disagree - we are the potential new car buyers if we get hooked and make enough money.

    Loach

  15. #15
    Paul Shovestul
    Guest
    Location
    , ,
    Member No: Paul Shovestul's Avatar


    Yes | No

    My '00 528iTM does the same thing.......

    I've only had it 6 days, but it's happended on two occasions where I've been stuck a a stop light within a mile of leaving.
    I bet many owners don't know their car does it if they don't have to idle before engine comes to normal operating temp.
    $1000 repair bill??? Maybe I should have kept the E28.

    Nice work guys.

    Paul Shovestul
    '00 528iTM SPP 61K 7/99 build

  16. #16
    AustinPowers
    Guest
    Location
    , ,
    Member No: AustinPowers's Avatar


    Yes | No

    Sorry, meant 99 M62 w/Vanos


  17. #17
    Crusader
    Guest
    Location
    , ,
    Member No: Crusader's Avatar


    Yes | No

    Excellent post ....

    But given BMW's propensity to stonewall or at least make it difficult for the consumer to obtain satisfaction when a poor design decision impacts vehicle reliability, I'm not very confident the suggestion (Vano's seal kit for economical repair) will be implimented.

    BUT, one can hope. They've been fairly reasonable about the pixel issue and M3 engine woes. (OTOH, we still have all that crappy ... and demonstrably unreliable and short-lived ...plastic in our cooling systems.)

  18. #18
    RMedure
    Guest
    Location
    , ,
    Member No: RMedure's Avatar


    Yes | No

    A crazy idea ...

    I wonder if it's possible to put a booster pump for the oil in line somewhere.

    Obviously this doesn't "fix" the problem, but maybe worth considering.

    Or maybe redesign the spring. It may be stiff due to minimize vibration, but then again, maybe not.

  19. #19
    RMedure
    Guest
    Location
    , ,
    Member No: RMedure's Avatar


    Yes | No

    I suppose you've also considered ...

    to notify goverment agencies (who care about emissions). They probably wouldn't take kindly to a known design flaw that can ruin cats.

  20. #20
    Registered Member
    Location
    , ,
    Member No: 113300 mx5_10ae is an unknown quantity at this point mx5_10ae's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    69
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes | No

    Great post! Keep us updated on the outcome...

    Bimmers are great cars but the arrogance of BMWNA really sours the whole ownership experience. I will probably drive my 528i to the ground but after that I will be done with BMWs for good. Unless, of course, BMWNA realizes that they’re losing customers and changes the direction (very doubtful).

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 18 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 ... LastLast


Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 3 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 3 guests)

     

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
1e2 Forum