OK everybody time to VOTE, OT vs. Modo-O-Matic

[Ethan W]

OK everybody time to VOTE but not before a bit of background.

• Some people here, Camp-1 believe that too many OT are being posted in the main E31 technical forum distracting everybody else from the essence and the goal of the E31 technical forum. For that Camp-1 is empowered with the Mod-O-Matic tool which allows them to kill any OT posts.

• Another group of people, Camp-2 believe that posting OT in the main forum is OK and it does not really distract the others and the Modo-O-Matic should be disabled. One more argument is that now you have to go to two different forums in order to keep up with the E31 community at a technical level as well as OT level. But the biggest issue that I see is that the Mod-O-Matic tool is being used very unfair and inconsistent. Very much depends on who posts the OT in the main E31 forum and for that the OT post sometime gets killed and sometime not. Bottom line the system is being abused and used unfairly by individuals who don’t have the balls to step up and take a constructive approach to this OT issue in the main forum. Those individuals don’t even have the balls to admit they’re killing specific OT threads and allowing others.

So with that in mind I propose to VOTE for allowing OT posts in the main E31 forum and disabling the Lounge. From all BMW forums on RoadFly Only E31 and M3 have lounges and it looks like everybody else can coexist together just fine.

I don’t know what rules and framework we should use for voting and that’s not my place or job. I believe the webmasters of this forum can deal with that.

As soon as we have a voting process and framework in place, let’s just do it and put this to rest for once.
Can we all just get along and have some fun while learning about our cars?

[JIM NYC]

1991 RACING DYNAMICS K55 6 SPEED 13,500 MILES
2006 JAG XKR
1993 850 Parts Car
1992 850 Parts Car
1994 850 Parts Car

[Robert]

I agree with Ethan and Jim

[Charles]

I disagree with Ethan and Jim, and would vote to have the MOM enforced better, and have 90% of the current patter eliminated. As I recall Ethan, a month or two ago you said you were leaving for good. What happened to make you change your mind?

Charles

[Jud]

Being away for a day and getting ready to go home, I thought I'd pop in to check out the latest E31 posts --- and wow, an intense <b>battle of wills</b> regarding MOM and OT posts. For a brief moment, I almost closed my browser and moved on.

Usually I stay away from such nonsense because at the end of the day, these matters continue to divide the community in place of building coalitions among us. When we reach the "Camps" stage --- Us vs Them vs Charlie/Alan vs Old Guard vs New Guard -- et...al, well, it just exacerbates issues.

Therefore, I would like to share feedback with you in three key areas:<ol><li><b>History</b> - Roadfly's OT/Lounge Creation (2004)
<li><b>Forum Board Technology</b> - Roadfly's Threaded Perspective vis-a-vis Current/Future Setups
<li><b>Suggestions</b> - Alternatives/Considerations</ol>After reading all of the posts involved (here and in the Lounge), it's obvious there are many intense emotions regarding the structure and decorum here. So here goes.....

<b>History</b>

This forum began in earnest in 1999. The importation of the E31/8 Series for the North American market ceased July/August 1997. Global production of the 8 Series ended 12-May-1999 with the last M62 840's rolling off the line. In 1999, there was a small and focused family of E31 enthusiasts that began to congregate here. Paul Michael Brown (Washington DC) expanded the conversation in an email newsletter. The community was small and it felt like a virtual family.

A small group of 8er owners in the Bay Area of California came together and formed the first regional group of 8er owners.

In the entire world, the Roadfly forum in 1999 was the only place to have a coherent E31 conversation. Then in 2000, a French teenager, Philippe Brule, began ClubE31.com/.net to attempt to make the next stage in enthusiasts evolution by putting a together a worldwide website. With community growing pains and issues with ClubE31, the community split in 2000/2001.

Despite that first blip, the enthusiast community grew more in 2001. With that growth came more pain --- Charlie/Alan having to keep up with an exponentially growing web presence, there were the usual schisms/debates, etc. By the summer of 2002, a dispersed group of 8er owners converged at the BMW CCA OktoberFest held in Keystone, CO --- and for the first time, received national recognition that the 8er owners were a true enthusiasts community --- and 8er bashing by other BMW owners seem to slow.

Roadfly was the centerpiece of the up and coming growing community. Then in 2003, 8-Fest's were born, and the largest meeting of 8er's in the world occurred -- much to the dismay of our German friends (however, in 2007, it's reported that they will have over 100 cars at the show).

With growth, comes additional pains --- O/T subjects became more commonplace in 2003, 2004 -- and politics of the 2004 election were being openly discussed --- friendships suffered through personal attacks, people left Roadfly in disgust. The German 8er owners think we're ugly Americans based on our Roadfly posts and they eventually decided (for several reasons beyond this subject) to form their own officially recognized group to become the de facto representatives of all BMW 8er owners worldwide -- while others in the USA BMW community say shameless comments about 8er owner character (e.g. the LA BMW CCA local president for example --- that's another story). Even a German national (Olaf) living in Las Vegas, NV with his M73 850CiA wants nothing to do with Roadfly.

While visiting the E39 forum in October 2004, I noticed that they had an Off Topic/Lounge forum. So I asked Charlie/Alan if we could have one also in the E31 forum due to the excessive arguments that were taking place. I also put up a vote in a thread, much like Ethan is doing here:
<center>
Vote to Establish OT/Lounge post 13-October-2004
First post in the new OT/Lounge 16-October-2004
</center>
The majority of participants at that time wanted relief from the relentless distractions that were prevalent at that time.

Since 2004, the forum operated in two modes -- E31 discussion and anything else to be in the O/T forum. Of course this caused some grief for new people and for existing participants. The posts would disappear and people would get mad. Then Charlie/Alan devised a method that would move O/T posts to the Lounge.

<b>Forum Board Technology</b>

Today most car enthusiast forums are moving to Vbulletin, phpBB2, Invision, and Joomla. A majority of these forums dispense with the threaded forum messaging that is used here at Roadfly. All the major boards have an Off-Topic posting area --- and these boards have intricate sub forums to discuss narrower subjects, such as Performance enhancements.

When using the threaded forum approach, the ability to segregate conversations becomes difficult, hence the creation of the O/T lounge forum. Because the threaded forum conversation is one thread, visitors usually will see different posts but in one place. For many people that is preferable over other forums; and that could be seen as a competitive advantage for Roadfly.

It's my understanding that Charlie/Alan have thought of alternatives for the visual representation of the forums, but then again, there's a lot of work in migrating forum content to the new approaches being employed today.

<b>Suggestions</b>

With some history and technology shared, I come to ask for your consideration of ways we can mend the community and move forward.

First, <b>let's respect the rules</b> that Charlie/Alan have put forth here. Without their incredible investment in this webspace, the E31 community would not have risen to where it is today. It's okay to disagree with them -- however, they are the owners and we're guests in their home.

Second, <b>let's assume everyone is right about their perspective</b> on the O/T Lounge subject. Yeah, hard to do, but let's try it. Each and every one of you is a vital link to this community. Without your contributions, we would be poorer in ownership spirit. Diversity of opinion makes a community stronger, while respect for one's opinion is even a greater focus. Treat everyone as you would like to be treated.

And lastly, <b>let's resume the business of being enthusiastic about the E31</b> -- and show the world that this forum is still the great place it always was and still is -- despite our familial issues -- the best place in the world to have the best conversation about the E31.

Thank you in advance for your consideration.

Jud

[johnfuston]

- John
'92 850i Twin Turbo
<TABLE border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><TR><TD><a href="http://www.itsystems.net/PersonalPics/850iA/InSearchOfSpeed01a.JPG">
<img src="http://www.itsystems.net/PersonalPics/850iA/InSearchOfSpeed01d.JPG" border="0"></a></TD><TD><a href="http://www.itsystems.net/PersonalPics/850iA/Manifolds-New01a.JPG">
<img src="http://www.itsystems.net/PersonalPics/850iA/Manifolds-New01d.JPG" border="0"></a></TD><TD><a href="http://www.itsystems.net/PersonalPics/850iA/DeutchMarkConcoursFirstPlaceTrophy01a.JPG">
<img src="http://www.itsystems.net/PersonalPics/850iA/DeutchMarkConcoursFirstPlaceTrophy01d.JPG" border="0"></a></TD><TD><a href="http://www.itsystems.net/PersonalPics/850iA/TwinTurboDynoVideo01.wmv">
<img src="http://www.itsystems.net/PersonalPics/850iA/RevHighDynoWar01d.JPG" border="0"></a></TD></TR><TR><TD>........</TD></TR></TABLE><TABLE></TABLE>

[E31PimP]

[JIM NYC]

"Now, on the other side, Steve, et al--it would help a LOT if you guys practiced a little more tolerance. Jim's original Father's Day post was off topic for sure, but come on--it wasn't particularly horrible and didn't really get in the way of anything. All the other boards here, including the E46 M3 board, cut people a little more slack when it comes to off topic things. Don't have such an itchy trigger finger."
The Lounge is ok My Point was Way Missed except for Alan He Got It
My Fatehers Day Post Was Ot Big Deal It was Not Moved to the lounge
It was Closed. As long As You Have MOM and anymos system
a$$holes will not cut slack and have itchier trigger fingers
Make MOM open and public so if i mom your post it will be know
who did it. this way someone may feel shame before they mom a decient
human post. You with the cooler head understang exactly what I am
Saying and maybe can make a change.
Jim


1991 RACING DYNAMICS K55 6 SPEED 13,500 MILES
2006 JAG XKR
1993 850 Parts Car
1992 850 Parts Car
1994 850 Parts Car

[TX Greg]

thanks Jud for taking the time and thought. Everyone should think about this before it all goes to hell.

[ckjumbo]

Excellent post Jud - Thank You!

-Chris

1997 Dinan 8 (340hp, 379torque)
1993 Dinan 8 TT, Stage 2 (528hp,603torque)
2003 MB CL600 Renntech, Stage 1(625hp,745torque)


<a href="http://mydrive.roadfly.com/photos/pic.php?u=133531hQipW&i=5208"><img src="http://mydrive.roadfly.com/photos/pic.php?u=133531hQipW&i=5208" border="0"></a>

[Donald]

You're like a belligerent drunk at a party. Go home. Sleep it off.

[Ethan W]

around this and I would like to stay constructive as well, just like you very well put it “building coalitions among us” rather than “continuing to divide the community”
I can’t help it but smile reading your post. So you guys have been dealing with the OT issue for a very long time (2003) and in my opinion you as a group came up with the wrong solution after a very small number of people voted with “Yes”.
I find it strange that such a small minority dictates such a major change in the E31 forum and I will not comment anymore on that for the sake of keeping this constructive.
I will add to your comment the word constructive therefore constructive “Diversity of opinion makes a community stronger” and I hope it goes both ways in all camps in this forum. Hint Steve and Wuffer ☺

With that in mind here is the solution I propose. I believe that the “Lounge” is OK to have but still inconvenient to go read stuff in two different places, and again can’t help it smile about the so call majority voting for the Lounge. What really got a lot of people here is the ability to MOM posts and CLOSE them and that got very personal and out of line.

So here is the solution. Keep the Lounge for the sake of staying constructive and united, we all have to give and take, right? BUT disable the MOM feature until implemented properly. The assumption for proper implementation is that when a post is flagged as OT, that post will be automatically moved to the Lounge and not deleted.

How is that for a solution, Allan & Charlie and the rest of this community?

Regards
Ethan

[Ethan W]

[Wuffer]

via email. Thank you.<img src="http://members.roadfly.com/wuffer/R1n2sig.jpg">
www.wuffer.net
Langley, BC Canada
91 E31 WufferRed CB72884 (R #1)
91 E31 WufferRed CB73065 (R #2)
92 Lexus SC400 Green (familymobile)
01 PT Cruiser (wifemobile)

[lezonebay]

problem is some trigger happy fella who would vote messages out w/o reasons. Mod-O-Matic should work as promised. OT post should be moved to Lounge and the only post to be deleted should the obscene and vulgar posts.
for sale should remain on topic imho as the advertisement section is a piece of junk and a worthless piece ! whoever came up with that has no sales experience and surely has never seen an ebay or amazon site. I suggest to Alan and Charlie to hire a person to hevily revise that. It is a bad joke. Horrible. painfully bad.

otherwise I'm NOT happy with MOM as it is not working as promised. JIM's post was DELETED not moved to Lounge. I agree on being transferred but surely AGAINST being deleted. He did not say anything that needed to be deleted.

So unless MOM is not working as promised by Alan and Charlie then I say NO, if this would work as promised then I say it is a GO.
I like the way it was promised to work by now but evidently it is still just a cancel button.

I still have Alan's mail when he told me it will be working fine by end of april early may. if the MOM deleted Jim's post then it is NOT working.

<a href="http://mydrive.roadfly.com/photos/pic.php?u=56726KDZYN&i=5166"><img src="http://mydrive.roadfly.com/photos/pic.php?u=56726KDZYN&i=5166" border="0"></a>

1997 840CiA
1990 Z1
2002 Astro Van
2002 Lexus GS300
2007 Mazda CX9 AWD
1998 Yamaha Blaster/Breeze

[JIM IN NYC]

1991 RACING DYNAMICS K55 6 SPEED 13,500 MILES
2006 JAG XKR
1993 850 Parts Car
1992 850 Parts Car
1994 850 Parts Car

[JIM IN NYC]

1991 RACING DYNAMICS K55 6 SPEED 13,500 MILES
2006 JAG XKR
1993 850 Parts Car
1992 850 Parts Car
1994 850 Parts Car

[JIM IN NYC]

1991 RACING DYNAMICS K55 6 SPEED 13,500 MILES
2006 JAG XKR
1993 850 Parts Car
1992 850 Parts Car
1994 850 Parts Car

[Donald]

You have nothing to contribute.

[Ethan W]