what say you?

[Donkey]

Do you agree or disagree with a US Marine Corps general?<br />
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[@ Oz530iTAS]

appointed role, if in fact that is what happened, is more likely due to a lack of command at the top rather than any influx of gay soldiers in the ranks.

Every military in history has had its share of homosexuals (open or otherwise) because every male population has its share of homosexuals but I doubt you will find a record blaming the defeat of the Spanish Armada on a bunch of gay sailors cavorting on the decks of the galleons and throwing flowers at the English.







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[Donkey]

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[@ Oz530iTAS]

this excerpt of his submission, I am not sure what I should disagree with first.

"The battalion was understrength, poorly led, and the Serbs came into town, handcuffed the soldiers to the telephone poles, marched the Muslims off, and executed them," Sheehan said.

Where has the above quote got anything to do with gays. Again, if true, it smacks entirely of a lack of command and organization. Assuming there were gays among the Dutch troops, this is a battalion-strength force of regular army and you would need more than the occasional gay to weaken it. Whereas an ineffective command structure could pull it down in no time flat.







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[Donkey]

First, I'd hardly consider testimony from a Marine general as "heresay." I believe that he would not make such statements unless he knew they were indisputable.

Second - at least from what I read - the point he's trying to make is that a number of issues conspired to create an un-battle-ready force, including the presence of gays in the military.

I also don't think the statement <i>""Yes," Sheehan said. "They included that as part of the problem." He said the former chief of staff of the Dutch army had told him."</i> is heresay, nor do I think Sheehan would perjure himself on this point.

Finally, I think Sheehan's actual front-line combat and command experience uniquely qualifies him to make such a judgment.

But again, it's all in how you read it.



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[@ Oz530iTAS]

also read reports from senior Dutch officials who dispute that a Dutch Chief of Staff made such comments to Sheehan (not that you would expect otherwise) so until someone comes forward with evidence to the contrary, I would think it is still hearsay.

From another report: "During the same testimony, Sheehan claimed that sexual attraction between servicemembers of the same sex would have a negative impact on readiness, while attraction between men and women in gender-integrated units would not."

I cannot imagine either circumstance being so black and white as to state that at a hearing unless you preface it with "In my opinion".







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[Donkey]

Sheehan has first-hand combat experience with gender-integrated combat units. He also has what he believes to be compelling evidence (along with decades of experience commanding soldiers) regarding readiness of combat units containing openly gay members. I believe that's what is known as "testimony by expert witness."<br />
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[@ Oz530iTAS]

"expert opinion" not "expert evidence" as I see no reporting of evidence stated.







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[Donkey]

(keep in mind that this is a hearing and not a trial)

expert witnesses don't provide "evidence" in the sense of "on such and such a date I saw the defendant shoot the victim" - they provide "expert testimony" ... their interpretation of events based on the credentials which make them "experts." Sheehan certainly qualifies as an expert witness for Force Readiness. I believe the same would hold true for the former Chief of Staff of the Dutch Army.

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[sourkrause]

[@ gregory528iT]

and I didn't read the article. Your link sent me to the home page and that article had moved on. I didn't look.

So what you are saying is.. the general is an "Expert" so he knows exactly what he is talking about. Would not lie.
You originally ask us if we agree with him or not. Your statements to OZ are such that you think his expert testimony is above reproach. Are you agreeing with the general? Why are you asking us our opinion? I don't know of any Marine Generals that frequent this board.




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[Donkey]

How do you add fuel to a fire for which you brought no wood? I'm not sure what <i>"Why are you asking us our opinion? I don't know of any Marine Generals that frequent this board.</i> means.

At least read the GD article if you want to play, dumass.<br />
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[beyemvey]

It even appears to have infiltrated the very "butch" British Army.

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[beyemvey]

[Donkey]

I'm just looking for a "Yes" or "No." This particular group of people never ceases to amaze me in their inability to deliver a simple answer to a straightforward question.

It's like conversing with a gaggle of SAKGs. And you are their leader.

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[@ gregory528iT]

as far as I know.. there is no one on this lounge that can speak
from true experience, thus his or her opinion would not be valid. (non expert)

OK I've read the article. I am not commenting on the article. I am not, was not a Marine General (or other such expert) If I tried, I am sure I would get the same treatment you gave OZ..
I am commenting on your desire to ask an opinion on a subject you think none of us qualified to answer.








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[beyemvey]

...yes/no answer. I will preface this by stating I am not a military expert.

From a practical standpoint in the modern world I will make a bold statement that it is best to keep relationships out of the workplace, especially for the military workplace. Favoritism undermines morale. I state this regardless of the genders of the participants in any such relationhip.

From the historical perspective... well, in ancient history there is a precedent for an opposing view to that of the general, vis a vis Epaminondas of Thebes, the Spartans, etc. These cultures openly practiced what today would be considered an alternative lifestyle, yet they had some of the most successful armies of their era.

[SheB]

Gays in the military is nothing new. Ask Alexander.

[@ gregory528iT]

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Taylor Made Burner TP, 17.5°
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Titleist 54°.14 Vokey Spin Mill SW
Titleist 60°.04 Vokey Spin Mill LW
Oddessy "Dual Force 440" (bullseye with insert) putter, 34"
Titleist ProV1

[SheB]

Was he also a great military leader that conquered Greece, Persia, Egypt and a large part of Asia?!?!