ummmmmm.......

[Donkey]

shouldn't this kid be arrested for assault and theft?<br />
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[beyemvey]

1
photo info here...click

I guess the guy has free speech, of course he might get the kid on petty theft, but he could be gotten on inciting a riot. People with weak intellectual agruments tend to be "incendiary".

[Donkey]

this? Yet another "weak intellectual argument?"



************************************************** *******************
Andrew C. McCarthy

September 11, 2010 4:00 A.M.

Imagining Islam

Wishful thinking will not bring success or security.

If only the fantasy were true: If only there actually were a dominant, pro-American, echt moderate Islam, an ideology so dedicated to human rights, so sternly set against savagery, that acts of terrorism were, by definition, “un-Islamic activity.” Imagine an Islam that, far from a liability, proved an asset (indeed, an indispensable asset) in combating the threat against us. Imagine that we could accurately call the threat mere “extremism” — no “Islamic” (or even “Islamist”) modifier being necessary because the “extremists” truly were a tiny, aberrant band, fraudulently “hijacking” a great religion.

If the fantasy were true, who among us would not be proud to mark the annual observance of September 11 by breaking ground on a $100 million Islamic center *** mosque at the site of the most horrific attack in American history? In the nine years since the atrocities that claimed the lives of nearly 3,000 Americans at the Twin Towers, the Pentagon, and a field in Shanksville, Pa., such an Islam — if it really existed — would have spearheaded the defeat of America’s enemies.

Such an Islam, over nine long years, would have risen up and made itself heard. It would have identified by name and condemned with moral outrage the imposters purporting to act in its name. It would have honored America’s sacrifice of blood and treasure in the liberation of oppressed Muslim peoples. It would have said “thank you” to our troops. It would have joined America, without ambiguity or hesitation, in crushing terror networks and dismantling the regimes that abet them. It would not have needed trillion-dollar American investments to forge democracies; it would naturally have adopted democracy on its own.

What excruciating truths have we yet failed to grasp on this ninth anniversary of 9/11? The first is that such an Islam does not exist. The second is that, despite this fact, American foreign and domestic policy continues to proceed as though it does exist — and as though it were the only real Islam. That is, nine years after Islamists made their commitment to our destruction as unmistakable as possible, nine years after the non-occurrence of all the wonderful things that would certainly have happened if the Islam of our dreams were the Islam of our reality, our national-security strategy is still steeped in fiction.

Self-delusion is a convenient policy. It resists defining missions with anything but the most detached, politically correct loftiness. Serial attacks by readily identifiable enemies seamlessly become a nebulous “war on terror,” then a “long struggle against violent extremism,” then an “overseas contingency operation.” If you stubbornly avoid saying whom you’re fighting and why, pretty soon no one remembers — the better to define down success — don’t say victory. So we gradually slide from “You’re with us or you’re with the terrorists,” to “draining the swamps,” to “the forward march of freedom,” to the creation of “democracies” that are reliable American “allies in the war on terror,” to “democracy-lite, and please pass the sharia,” to “shoot for stability,” to “Why not negotiate with the Taliban? Look how well the engagement with Iran is going.”

We may succeed in kidding ourselves, but our enemies aren’t fooled. By 9/11, Iran had been braying “Death to America!” and matching word with deed for over 20 years. The mullahs heard all the “You’re with us or with the terrorists” banter, but they also saw it followed up with a policy of entreaty, appeasement, and capitulation. So they did what any jihadist taking our measure would do: They spent the ensuing nine years helping other jihadists kill Americans. The only difference now is that they’re about to be a jihadist nuclear power — a status they must have known was a shoo-in once the chorus of American politicians began pronouncing it “unacceptable.”

In the two new “democracies” we’ve built, sharia reigns, as it was bound to do when the State Department wrote it into the new constitutions — Islam being one of our purported weapons against terrorism. One result is that homosexuals and religious minorities are brutally persecuted.

In Iraq, where half the public still sees attacks on U.S. troops as legitimate, democratic elections are now contests in which candidates vie to show who is most anti-American. To the new Iraq, Iran is the most important ally. Indeed, if war broke out with Iran tomorrow, American forces in Iraq would be barred from launching attacks against Tehran. We’ve pledged not to use our costly military presence in Iraq against any other country — the only country for which the Shiite government would waive that prohibition is Israel.

Meantime, in Afghanistan, the U.S.-backed Karzai government is desperately seeking a deal with the Taliban — the Islamist terrorists the State Department refuses to designate as terrorists. As the Wall Street Journal reports, the Afghan government even convened a conference of clerics to enact a resolution calling for more exacting enforcement of sharia, the Taliban’s key demand. In response, the Taliban have stepped up the pace of bombings and assassinations. They are convinced, as Karzai is convinced, that President Obama will begin pulling out next year, just as he said he would. We imagine a cozy life with a “moderate” Taliban; the actual Taliban intend on ruling with remorseless sharia.

At home, even as al-Qaeda continues its efforts to reprise 9/11, a network of Islamist organizations — coordinated by the Muslim Brotherhood and financially backed by our friends, the Saudis — proceeds with what it calls its “grand jihad” to eliminate and destroy Western civilization by sabotage. This is not a secret. The Brotherhood’s internal memoranda were seized by the FBI. They boldly announce these claims in black and white. Two years ago, the Justice Department aptly labeled the constituent organizations — including the Islamic Society of North America and the Council on American Islamic Relations — as unindicted co-conspirators in a terrorism-financing case in which several of their partners were convicted of funneling millions of dollars to Hamas. Today, those Islamist organizations are right back in business, with an open door to “engaging” government policymakers, as if nothing ever happened. In our imagination, they’re moderates, too.

One thing never intrudes on our make-believe world: the real 9/11. Before it was Ground Zero, the World Trade Center was a real place, where flesh-and-blood Americans were slaughtered — some of them leaping over 70 stories to their grisly demise because it seemed more merciful than immolation in the fires that raged within. We try not to think about that much anymore, except for a fleeting moment or two every September 11. We just imagine it can never happen again. After all, we’ve got Islam in our corner.
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[SheB]

Where did you get it?

[Donkey]

I think so too. I typically don't forward political articles but this one resonates very well, IMO. Plus, it's not too hard to see that it was written with people like bey in mind.

I got it from my father-in-law.

It was written by Andrew C. McCarthy, and it may be found here.<br />
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[beyemvey]

...McCarthy.

Now this is intellectually way better than the dude BBQing the Koran, but is still full of holes.

Let's go back and look at the same 30 years another way...

Ronnie Reagan is inaugurated in 1981. The embassy hostages are released. Had the US been backing the corrupt Shah Reza Palavi for decades, and did some Iranians have a legitimate gripe with the US messing in their politics?

GHWB had been CIA boss for quite a while, and now was VP.

Who bankrolled the Muja-hadin fighting the Russkies? Who bankrolled bin Laden when he was our pal? Who supported Saddam's power?

...and we had a first Gulf war... and we've had "terror attacks" around the world... and we have a war in Afghanistan, and a second Iraq war that is winding down.

Over the past 30 years the Republican Party has been in control for 20. Much of this policy originated there.

We fought a cold war against communism beginning after WWII... how did we win that cold war? Yes, we fought in Vietnam, and countless "brushfire" skirmishes, but how did we ultimately win? With measured responses and vigilance through strength, but ultimately through detente and diplomacy.

The article also fails to mention how many innocent US citizens who happened to be Moslems died on that day. It gives precious little in the way of statistics to support many of the broad brush statements made. It was from National Review which explains a heavy right slant.

How best for Republicans (Not the RINOs) to gain back power? Sow the seeds of fear among the masses. Play one group of poor people against another to assure the rich will get richer. Let's make a political red herring about Americans wanting to practice their religion freely to take peoples' eyes off the ball of our real problems. A soundbyte is always better politically than hard analysis of the issues... like how did we get in this economic mess in the first place.

Now we need real efforts at diplomacy. Of course we should never let our guard down, because there are terrorists in the world, but to ultimately prevail in this conflict, we must not sacrifice our own civil rights and liberties. We must lead by example, and convince all who will listen that peace and adherence to the universal rights of humanity will benefit all more than continued bloodshed.

Remember the martyrs to peace... Sadat, Rabin, King, Bobby and JFK...
Jesus?

[beyemvey]

[beyemvey]

...Gingrich's George Walace moment...

[Donkey]

Well, ok - the moronic "sounds more like Joe" comment was expected, but let's just chalk that up to beyhumor.

I get two main themes from your response:

1. you are comparing the actions of a religion with those of a country's foreign policy, and

2. based on that comparison, you seem to say "we (the US) get what we deserve."

As for the "...innocent Moslems who died on that day" ... how does this possibly relate or even matter to a religion that talks about things like a paradise full of virgins after death? I fail to see your point on this one.

Finally, do you truly believe that diplomacy will be effective in dealiing with a people who have been taught to hate each other - and now the West - for centuries?

You are EXACTLY the type of mentality McCarthy addresses in his article: wishful thinking.

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[Donkey]

This country's cultural identity is being attacked right now, today.

And where do you think we would be today if we hadn't "started" the Iraq / Afganistan wars? Let me guess... everyone living happily together in a field of flowers, right?

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[@ Oz530iTAS]

step, you have rocks in your head.







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[Donkey]

I'm not really sure what you mean, so I'll take a guess.

I think that back when OIF started, it was a very positive step. I think formally engaging the Taliban in war was also a very positive step.

Now, if you are in your Armchair Quarterback mode and asking "If I were able to take what I know today back to the start of the war, would I think it a positive..."

My answer: yes. Obviously some strategies would be adjusted, but as long as we're in make-believe mode, then I also get to imagine what might have happened to us if we'd not gotten involved in either front.

I think our "War on Terror" was initially effective. I firmly believe if we hadn't come out shooting, we would have fallen victim to additional 9/11-style attacks in the intervening time. I for one would prefer such events do not take place again. And I believe no amount of diplomacy would affect such efforts on the part of the bad guys.

I think America has a short memory, along with many of the countries that didn't suffer 9/11 first-hand. Which inevitably leads to a downstream loss of effectivity in the overall kill-a-terrorist effort. But all in all, I think militarily we've done ok. Maybe even helped prevent more 9/11 attacks in remote areas of the world - maybe even in your backyard.

So while you may enjoy playing Armchair Quarterback and living in a pretend world where everyone gets along "because we talk about it," I live in what I think is a more realistic environment.

I like my rocks just fine, thanks.


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[beyemvey]

<table style='font:11px arial; color:#333; background-color:#f5f5f5' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='360' height='353'><tbody><tr style='background-color:#e5e5e5' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com'>The Daily Show With Jon Stewart</a></td><td style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; text-align:right; font-weight:bold;'>Mon - Thurs 11p / 10c</td></tr><tr style='height:14px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;' colspan='2'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-september-16-2010/rally-to-restore-sanity'>Rally to Restore Sanity</a></td></tr><tr style='height:14px; background-color:#353535' valign='middle'><td colspan='2' style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; width:360px; overflow:hidden; text-align:right'><a target='_blank' style='color:#96deff; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/'>www.thedailyshow.com</a></td></tr><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><embed style='display:block' src='http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:comedycentral.com:359366' width='360' height='301' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' wmode='window' allowFullscreen='true' flashvars='autoPlay=false' allowscriptaccess='always' allownetworking='all' bgcolor='#000000'></embed></td></tr><tr style='height:18px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><table style='margin:0px; text-align:center' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='100%' height='100%'><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/'>Daily Show Full Episodes</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.indecisionforever.com/'>Political Humor</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/videos/tag/Tea+Party'>Tea Party</a></td></tr></table></td></tr></tbody></table>

[Donkey]

wow... the masons must be so proud.

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[beyemvey]

...Franklin's so I will pretend that was a compliment.

Peace!

[Black_Magic_Warhorse]

People were saying that we should not judge all Muslims based upon the actions of radicals within their group (which I agree), but I asked why is it that there is no outcry from the Muslim community for the actions of the extremists within their group? Are they just not getting adequate media coverage that they deserve, or is there really no outcry, or assistance.

Part of being a religion is "sales" to promote a positive image of your religion so you can bring in more members. Islam has some healthy financial backing yet it appears they don't have a problem with terrorists killing people in their name. Islamic countries also impose a death penalty for apostasy, so once a Muslim, always a Muslim. If you are a religion, country, sports team, company, etc. you have a certain amount of public relations responsibility to make sure that everyone understands that the actions of the extremists in your group don't represent the views of your entire group. Yet I hear nothing but crickets from them. No rallies promoting peace between religions. No media ads promoting peace or doing damage control. Nothing.

Yet westerners who don't know anything about the religion are just supposed to assume that all Muslims are peaceful people, even after we see all kinds of terrorist attacks from those doing so in the name of their religion. Then we hear of a mosque being built near the 9/11 site and we are supposed to be tolerant, even though on the other side of the country a woman has to go into hiding due to death threats because she started "draw Mohammad day" on Facebook

I'll openly admit that I'm not completely familiar with everything about their religion, and I'm starting to read a little about it. However I'm not liking what I'm reading/seeing at all, as there is no tolerance on their side at all. So why should we be tolerant of them if they are going to attack everything about us, and demand that we do things in their prehistoric manner.

I'm not about to give up everything just to please them, nor are most others. You bend over backwards to help someone and when they still want more it creates resentment, and that resentment appears to be growing. I personally don't think there is any way to avoid the inevitable clash that is going to happen.

[@ Oz530iTAS]

gets a mention, considering they were the reasons we all went to war in the first place.

Iraq has just been a shambles which has cost far too many young lives and has very little to justify it. Worse still, it has shifted the balance of power in the region to Iran which is ruled by another bunch of religious nutters who are quite likely to have WOMD. At least Saddam kept them busy and kept Al-Qaeda out of Iraq at the same time.

As far as Afghanistan is concerned, there isn't too much to choose between the Taliban and the current corrupt government. The people will be the losers either way. If our involvement there had wiped out Al-Qaeda and sent a message to terrorists worldwide, that would be fine but Al-Qaeda has moved to safe havens in Pakistan and we are left fighting in somebody else's civil war which, it would seem, is unlikely to be won with military might.










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[Donkey]

Didn't think I had to - that much should be obvious.

Yes, the entire world knows that no WMD were found in Iraq (interesting/convenient how you neglect to mention the "I thumb my nose at your inspectors and the UN" attitude SH took prior to the invasion). I happen to believe that had we not invaded, WMD *would* have become a reality in Iraq.

Hmmm, a choice between an outright terrorist organization running a country, or a corrupt government which can be replaced thru democratic means. You see that as a lose-lose.

Keeping Al Qeada on the run is a definite plus in my book. Remember the whole "If you're not with us, you're against us" philosophy? Worked pretty well until the shock of 9/11 wore off and all the bleeding hearts started whining about the use of military force (again). Sound familiar?

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