I'm voting Republican...

[beyemvey]

Interesting Dem. get out the vote video.

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...website...

[Donkey]

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[M_Six]

Throw all the bums out.______________________________________________ ______________


Mark
<img src="http://www.bimmermail.com/boston2.JPG" height=77 width=449>
"Things break; it's scientific." - D. Byrne

[beyemvey]

...whomever I deem more qualified... the lesser of two weevils ;-)

[Gerg]

Did you forget

[Donkey]

you remember Slick <b>W</b>illy, right?<br />
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[beyemvey]

...at least "Slick" wasn't screwing US ;-P

He was also the last President to submit a balanced budget, lest we forget.

[Donkey]

the resident mason, keeper of all things high and mighty, defending a US president impeached for perjury and malfeasance.

Wait... silly me I almost forgot: the masons also condone plagiarism.

D'oh on me!
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[540sport]

As I remember it, Clinton was impeached for obstruction of Justice and giving perjured testimony to the Grand Jury. Then he was acquitted by the Senate. So although impeachment proceedings were brought he was not impeached.

Clinton was the only US President ever asked about his marital infidelities under oath in front of a Grand Jury, I don't think that means he was the only President that lied about marital infidelities.
Vin
98 540 Sport with everything & extra hots
BMW CCA, Boston Chapter
"The 540 is the head-case supermodel girlfriend..." Eric S.
"The worst thing you could do with your money is save it." ~ Jackie Gleason
If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough. Mario Andretti
The United States is a nation of laws: poorly written and randomly enforced. - Frank Zappa

[beyemvey]

...so I can't hold him to our ethics. I'm not saying he didn't sin, I'm just saying he did a decent job for us as President.

Masons certainly recognize our human failings. It is not always easy to keep one's irregular passions subdued, so to speak... but we agree that it is good to strive for improvement and try to keep self-control.

By the same token, I don't consider my friend David Vitter to be a bad person at heart for having had his own human failings. I think (despite his being a Republican ;-) he has done a decent job representing Louisiana in the Senate.

Best to leave forgiveness of sin to the Creator, and judge our elected officials by how well they do the work of the people, rather than dwelling on their private lives.

...and what are you talking about re: condoning plagiarism?

[DDB]

...to confuse the effectiveness of an Administration with the general "goodness" (or badness) of the time period over which the Administration ruled. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised you fall victim to this confusion.

Clinton certainly enjoyed an easygoing presidency as far as the economy, technological innovations, relative global peace, etc. Methinks that any President would have come out of '93-'00 smelling like roses. Don't get me wrong, Clinton tried his hardest to buck that trend with all of his personal nonsense!

- DDB

[Donkey]

(thank you!)<br />
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[Donkey]

but it's always a possiblity.

I've always thought the impeachment process was a required precursor tp bringing charges against a sitting president.

And that while Clinton was indeed impeached, he was acquitted of those charges in a separate process.

But like I said, I'm not a lawyer and I really didn't care too much about the material presented in my 12th grade civics class, so I could be wrong.

As for being the only president to have lied: that's hardly the point. Again, as far as I know (which may not be all that far) Clinton is the only president to get caught and then lie his way out of it. Big difference.

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[beyemvey]

<i>DDB - I think it's very easy to confuse the effectiveness of an Administration with the general "goodness" (or badness) of the time period over which the Administration ruled. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised you fall victim to this confusion.</i>

<b>In 1992 while campaigning, "I will focus like a laser beam on the economy."... "It's the economy, stupid!." The economy was not so good when Clinton took office. He was certainly to my mind one of the most truly pro-business recent US Presidents.</b>

<i>DDB - Clinton certainly enjoyed an easygoing presidency as far as the economy, technological innovations, relative global peace, etc. Methinks that any President would have come out of '93-'00 smelling like roses. Don't get me wrong, Clinton tried his hardest to buck that trend with all of his personal nonsense!</i>

<b>Perhaps you were still a youngster, and don't remember many of the difficult situations of that era: Somalia, the USS Cole, the 1st WTC bombing are but a few things that pop immediately into mind. I think Clinton's approach as problems arose could be compared to Hippocrates' advice to physicians, "...to do good, or to do no harm."</b>

[DDB]

Speaking of naiveté, I find it mildly amusing that you can credit the economic strength of the mid-to-late 90s with a single man who happened to be in office at the time. The global economy is, obviously, a complex machine, which lies mostly beyond the control or influence of any governing person or body.

- DDB

[540sport]

"Speaking of naiveté, I find it mildly amusing that you can credit the economic strength of the mid-to-late 90s with a single man who happened to be in office at the time. The global economy is, obviously, a complex machine, which lies mostly beyond the control or influence of any governing person or body."

Ok, Then you will agree that Obama cannot be blamed for the continuing recession?

The president is the CEO of the country. He hires and fires the fed chairmen, sets the policies, etc. Clinton took the economy for a babe cruise, Bush drove it into a ditch and Obama's out joyriding with your kids credit card.

Vin
98 540 Sport with everything & extra hots
BMW CCA, Boston Chapter
"The 540 is the head-case supermodel girlfriend..." Eric S.
"The worst thing you could do with your money is save it." ~ Jackie Gleason
If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough. Mario Andretti
The United States is a nation of laws: poorly written and randomly enforced. - Frank Zappa

[beyemvey]

...I gave him "full credit" for every aspect of the global economy? I'm just saying his policies fostered growth for business owners, entrepreneurs, and workers. Some of his policies did some good, and a lot of others at least "did no harm".

Again I must stress - his was the last balanced budget submitted by a US President. He did not raise income taxes. Under his administration, "deregulation" had not yet removed the safeguards that permitted this wonderful double-dip recession and high unemployment. The US manufacturing economy had not yet been dismantled and outsourced overseas... etc.

We could have done a great deal worse than Bill Clinton.

[beyemvey]

...with a lot of what you say here.

Though I voted for President Obama, there are some situations that I wish he had handled differently. The Blue Dog wing of the Democtratic Party has always advocated for balanced budgets, while being fairly progressive on most social issues. From the beginning, a clear economic recovery plan should have been enunciated. Though I believe health care reform is a good thing, it should have taken a back seat to the greater problem of unemployment. Main St. should have been helped, especially if taxpayers were expected to bail out Wall St.

I do believe the President has been working very hard, trying to do the right thing, and that he has faced more problems than most in his first 1.5 years in office. Though the 9.6% unemployment is very high, it would probably have been even higher without the stimulus package. I have read estimates in the 13% range. I also believe now the President has realized that defecit spending can not go on at this pace, and I would expect him to propose some big Federal budget cuts over the next 6 months, especially as our current wars finally wind down.

[DDB]

Economic cycles are a lot stronger than any effort put forth by any individual (IMO). It wasn't Bush's fault that the S&P 500 had a P/E ratio of 40+ just before he took office, and it wasn't Obama's fault that the unemployment trend started just before he took office.

- DDB

[DDB]

"I also believe now the President has realized that defecit spending can not go on at this pace, and I would expect him to propose some big Federal budget cuts over the next 6 months, especially as our current wars finally wind down."

I'll believe that when I see it. Of course, even if he wanted to make large budget cuts, such a decision may be beyond his control anyway.