yeah (Krause)... let's legalize marijuana

[Donkey]

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[DDB]

I never suggested there are no long-term deleterious effects. I'm merely suggesting that he's an adult and makes his own decisions. I'd prefer that he quit altogether, but beyond letting him know my opinion occasionally, I'm not going to berate him for his choices, even if they are bad choices.

As for his job, yes, one risk of drug use is losing his job. This is also a risk of which he is aware. If it comes to that, we certainly wouldn't offer financial support, nor would he ask for or accept it.

- DDB

[PeterBivo]

Uuhh, lots of folks drink beer regularly and do not go anywhere near the hard stuff, ie; vodka, tequilla, gin, etc. Also they enjoy beer w/out getting fall down, sloppy drunk. Point being, responsible adults can enjoy a couple of tokes w/out becoming strung-out heroin addicts or crack heads. Take away the profit motive for cartels and drug smugglers and put the hundreds of millions of dollars wasted on law enforcement targeting marijuana users each year towards solving the fiscal issues in our country. I mean, is a SWAT team w/helicopters, dogs, & armored vehicles really necessary to arrest someone who is growing a few plants for personal use? Happens often & is a stupid waste of tax dollars & resources. Just sayin....

[Donkey]

both for your brother and his family.

In fact, I can't think of ANY situation in which drug use (pot, etc.) results in a "good" situation, except possibly the pain-relieving qualities of pot which are claimed by medical patients (and for what it's worth, every MD I've ever queried on the subject tells me that such use is administered via a shot of TCH or whatever it is: not by giving the patient a joint).

As you say, he's an adult and it's his choice. Too bad the eight (or maybe it's "only" seven - don't know) cyclists weren't given a choice. Also too bad we'll never know if the pot use contributed significantly to the "accident." I come down on the side of "yes, it most certainly did."

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[Donkey]

Let's say CA were to legalize pot. The stated reason in the recent failed election was to realize revenue via taxation of the sale of pot.

We (here in San Diego) already have a HUGE problem with drug cartels smuggling cigarette cartons with fake tax stamps on them into the country: it is 100% logical to assume the same would take place with pot.

Let's take it further: let's assume that since pot is now legal, its manufacture would come under the auspices of FDA - a wholly reasonable expectation. Those regulations would incur cost which would be passed on to the consumer. Congratulations: you just created a brand new market for low-priced pot which has NOT been passed thru FDA. Then there are the labor unions for the field workers (assuming we didn't just legalize illegal immigration too)... the list goes on.

Are you REALLY so naive as to believe that legalization of marijuana is going to make the drug cartels just give up and "go away?" OPEN YOUR EYES (assuming you aren't too high to do so).

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[16kpsi]

out pot

insert "alcohol" and it reads like many stories of families affected by that. My point being - legality here, as DDB pointed out - had little to no affect on the lifestyle choice his brother made. I consider the effects of booze and alcohol as big or even a bigger burden on our system (DUI, long term health) than anything pot has or would bring with it's legalization.

Do I have a bunch of data to prove it pro or con? no. You yourself pointed out the taxation issues going on with our legal drugs - so should they be made illegal? Which is least expensive and/or creates the most revenue for our system - because that pretty much answers the financial side of what pot would be like if legalized. Do you have any numbers to say that legalizing pot will be MORE expensive that fighting it? I just don't buy the gateway argument. I've known/ know a lot of pot smokers. I've know/know a lot of drinkers. Is any one group more or less likely to move to harder drugs? Not in my experience. In fact, in my experience, I'd argue that partying boozers are more likely to end up snorting a pile of white stuff than a stoner. THAT, I will buy as a gateway drug. Some will argue that by using pot, a person has crossed the moral line of illegal drug use, but in my experience, that isn't what leads to shooting heroin. No way.

I did grow up in a world where pot was much more prevelent - like you wouldn't believe, Millar - Hawaii. Pot there (until Reagan's War on Drugs) was pretty much a way of life, and not sucha bad one - with the caveat that it became a hell of a lot MORE dangerous because of the War(in terms of growing, buying,distribution - it became more organized by real criminals because the low key growers got shut down pretty fast). I've smoked some, but it never did much for me - certainly not worth the hassle of being around and illegal substance. But even if legal, I wouldn't smoke. Hell, I rarelly drink and have never touched tobacco. Pretty much a waste of time and money - but that's just my perspective. And for me, I'd 10x or even 100x put my daughter in a car with a stoned person over a drunk person. Do I want her in either car? HELL NO. But she will drive, so she will be on the road with drunks (and stoners) - but I KNOW her chances of being killed by a drunk are a hell of a lot higher than being killed by a stoner (do I have numbers? No, just life experience) - legal or not. You have one officers opinion that pot is BAD and the gateway. You have another here who believes - based on HIS years of law enforcement experience - it's not so. Two people, two opinions. But I can't help notice you favor the opinion that is on your side of the fence. Aren't you of the era where they brain washed you with that 'Reefer Madness' video?

To me, the amount of effort and money put into the the drug war against pot and keeping it illegal is a ridiculous waste. Laughable even, but whatever. Personally - I'd rather see pot legal and booze and tobacco illegal - this from a functional society viewpoint. Purely my belief from seeing the effects of all three over the course of my life. Practically, the illegal industry that would result from this would be even more ridiculous than now. So I'll continue to pay my misc taxes for the "wars" and insurance premiums to replace lungs and livers from abusers of the legal, and illegal, drugs...(I'm not niave enough to think that chronic pot use won't create long term physical issues - it already does - emphysema, lung cancer, phycosis - but shyte, people are so stupid, they can even handle the use of sugar properly, so what can we expect?)

[PeterBivo]

A nice dose of common sense. Nice to see someone else not wearing blinders:)

[Dave S.]

agree with you, very strongly in fact, that no one should operate a vehicle while under the influence of anything, be it alcohol or drugs. I would never condone such a thing. But I have seen the death and destruction that is caused by alcohol on a daily basis. I'm surprised that you aren't calling for alcohol to be outlawed since thousands of innocent people are killed every year by drunk drivers. Why is that? I never gave it much thought at the time, but when topics like this come up (pot and driving) I look back over the years and find it surprising that I cannot remember more than a handful of DUI cases that were based on drug use. Also, even if marijuana laws were relaxed, I don't think that children should be allowed to partake, and I'm sure the law would exclude anyone under 18 or 21 years of age. As far as contacting Brian Pennings at CHP in El Cajon, I don't think that's necessary. I supervised one of the State Police technical crash reconstruction officers in the Chicago area for a few years so I'm pretty well versed on the details of this issue. I also know that most active police officers will say they are against legalization of drugs because that is the official position of their departments and they don't want to appear hypocritical. There is an organization of law enforcement officers, both active and retired, that supports a different approach to drugs other than the failed War on Drugs. This drug problem is not going away, ever. It's about time we try something different cause what we have been doing is not working. Bottom line though, is no matter what, operating a motor vehicle while under the influence of anything should be prosecuted to the fullest extent.
LEAP

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[Dave S.]

jet black 2000 528iA
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two Alpine amps
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AudioControl equalizer
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[DDB]

Well done.

[Donkey]

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[DDB]

[Donkey]

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[DDB]

[16kpsi]

I'm curious, because as much as I hate to admit it, Millar got me thinking last night.

Two things came to mind last night that have me kicking the leaves in my mind about my opinion of pot being a gateway drug - I may have to admit my opinion may be an anachronism - based on my age and the time when I gain many of my experiences around this. Because in my experience, one thing that wasn't really prevalent then, as it is now, is Meth.

First is my wife's nephew. He's about 12 years younger than me and grew up in the middle of Grunge Seattle. Mellow kid. HARD worker. Pot smoker(no Millar, not an oxymoron). Until someone loaded a bong with meth - he said he was instantly hooked. In my generation and peer group, this was never an issue. 2 years latter, temporary loss of his kids custody, he left for Montana with his wife. In his words, if he hadn't left, he would have been dead in a week. Got his kids back and has turned his life around - mostly. Still wreckage though. What I hadn't realized was that meth was so easily used with a bong. Not something your drinker or tobacoo smoker are inclined to have, use, or try....

Second - as I thought about our nephew's story, I could dismiss this as an outlying incident. It is from my perspective. However, my brother has continued to live in Hawaii since I left. One thing that became EPIDEMIC there is Meth. More so and earlier than it hit here on the mainland. It affected many people around my brother and his family in crazy ways. I can almost guarantee all of those cases where pot smokers initially. So considering what I posted earlier about pot being such a way of life there, is it any coicidence that Meth took off there as it did? If so, then the gateway theory gains a bunch of credibility in my mind.

Most of us here are 40+ (Millar, I believe, is almost 70) - so a lot of our experience is based on a different time. What pot smokers I'm around now - life timers - started smoking in what I can only call a simpler time. So they are really in zero risk of exposure to Meth. But I can't say I have much good knowledge of what a 17 year old male in the San Francisco east bay is exposed to - but I can imagine if they smoke pot, they may well be more likely to have someone offer, or even lace, a load with meth.

(I still think the economic/War of Drugs side favors legalization) but I'm didn't find much about this specific path as a gateway - just a lot of opinions and arguments - and just a couple of my own anecdotal experiences shouldn't be my only base.

so that's why I was asking when you served - was it far enough back that the Meth issue hadn't risen as much yet? (and that wasn't too long ago, unfortunately)

[Donkey]

The cops/docs I've spoken to on this (some of which are friends, others who happened to be in the right place at the right time) pretty much unanimously agree that pot as it existed in the 70s was pretty tame compared to today. They state that you could smoke a joint of "good stuff" and be straight again in a few hours.

Today, however, the TCH/THC/TCP/WTF it's called content is much stronger, which in turns means the highs last much longer: a day or more is not uncommon. The "consensus opinion" is that this stronger pot makes the transition to stronger drugs easier: in fact the CHP guy I mentioned earlier will tell you that based on his work at local rehab centers, the VAST majority of patients he has interviewed got their start as teens either drinking alcohol or smoking dope: GATEWAY.

Setting aside any physiological/addictive issues for the moment, what about the whole social side of the "pot scene." Do you think your nephew just spontaneously started doing drugs? Or was it more likely due to his hanging out with loser/stoners (you know: the YOUs of this generation)? GATEWAY.

Sort of makes you wonder whether any of the kids you turned on to pot went on to ruin their lives. Doesn't it?

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[Donkey]

There is really very little difference - in layman terms - between alcohol and pot in terms of how they affect society. Alcohol kills something like 100,000 people per year in the US alone - split fairly evenly between people it kills directly (health-related), and those it kills indirectly (traffic accidents, etc.). For those it doesn't kill, it shortens lives by 20-25 years (IIRC). And since you and Bauer seem to want to view everything in terms like "expense" and "efficiency" - I haven't looked but I've got to believe the burden of alcohol-related illnesses on our healthcare system is enormous.

But you and Bauer claim "alcohol is fine and it's legal - why not pot?"

I'm assuming that if I looked, I could probably find data from which to build similar statistics for pot, if it were legalized. Of course, I assume such stats would be different for legal pot vs. illegal pot (ie., make pot legal and more people will use it). Stoners will dispute this: that's why they're stoners.

We could go into a long discussion of why alcohol is legal: we could even get Bey to weigh in on the topic with his vast historical trivia. The bottom line is, an attempt was made to ban alcohol - for the wrong reasons - and we all know it failed miserably, almost exclusively due to the extent to which it had penetrated our society. By the time we began to understand the enormous negative health and societal effects of alcohol, combined with the stigma of that earlier failed attempt, is it any wonder that no one in their right mind would ever make that attempt again?

So the way I read it, what you and Bauer seem to be saying is "Well, alcohol is legal, and pot is no worse than alcohol, so let's just make pot legal." Nifty argument, but it leaves out salient issues like WHY alcohol is legal, and why (as was shown in the recent election) most of us would prefer not to have to risk ourselves or our families to yet another hazard in life: getting run over by some dumfuq stoner.

Message to you and Bauer: stick to bean-counting and leave policy to the rest of us.

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[DDB]

[DDB]

The "legalize pot" movement will continue to be impeded by the fact that people like PB TVC are arguing in favor of it.

[16kpsi]

he's been doing re-model work for us but is home in MT until the New Year. He's pretty open about the whole thing.

I mean, aside from the fact that pretty much his whole generation is a bunch of loser slackers, I'm not sure what his social scene was like. IIRC, it was one [Oops!] he knew loosely who loaded up a hit of meth on him and he was done.

I know the number of 'kids' I turned on to pot is less than the number you turned on to homosexuality, so don't be throwin' your guilt and remorse my way.