Lots of happy Cheeseheads today.

[SheB]

The dogs don't choose to fight. They're forced into the situation. That is the difference!

[beyemvey]

...much like bull fighting.

Still my point being that people have been bloodthirsty since ancient Rome and beyond. We just like to pretend our society is more civilized.
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/hGcwpJgge6g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Donkey]

WHAT THE PHOCK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, or how it relates to Michael Vick or Ben Rothlisberger and their behavior as members of the NFL.

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[Donkey]

that modern society is no more civilized than ancient Rome?

When was the last time you caught a good ole' Gladiator match, complete with lions mopping up the leftovers?

Sometimes I really do think you might be retarded.<br />
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[beyemvey]

...both societies use ritualized violence to entertain the masses. Both societies use public spectacles to reinforce patriotism and conformity to "popular opinion", which today has surpassed the Romans, who depended on oratory in the forum, and the sponsorship of public games by the oligarchs. Today this is driven by our far more advanced PR machines (AKA - the media) and huge corporate advertising dollars, and occasionally for politicians to make a public appearance and score a few votes.

Football is essentially a sanitized version of gladiatorial games. (I'm not saying I don't enjoy it - Geaux Tigers & Geaux Saints) Essentially you have two small armies fighting a mock battle. Of course football protective gear has improved since Rugby roots, but recent head injury stats indicate the grid-iron battle is not totally mock.

NASCAR is today's version of chariots running at the Circus Maximus, though modern safety technology has made actual deaths fewer and further between, crowds are still fascinated by wrecks and carnage.

In some ways technology has made us far more advanced at being less civilised than the Romans, after all, today we can wipe out cities with push-button ease... back then they had to get up close and personal. How can a mere gladiatorial contest compete, when today we can sit comfortably in our living rooms and watch the feed from a guided missle's flight as it obliterates a building. NOW THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT!!!

At any rate, Bucko, there's a big difference between MR and cynicism, that is probably just a bit to subtle for YOU to catch.

"Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor, not a gladiator!"

[beyemvey]

Pete Rose - gambling on sports
Michael Vick - dogfights took place on his property. He did the crime, he did the time.
Ben Rottweiler, at stud :-)
Football - people get hurt, careers are ended, Players get punchdrunk like Ali from multiple concussions.
Dog fighting - animals get hurt.
People bet on football games, dogfights, anything!

You relly like obvious surface connections more than having to think a couple of levels deeper, do you not?

Meanwhile we have Christina Aguilera butchering the Star Spangled Banner which was highly egregious to my ears!!!

[Donkey]

Gladiators fought to the death, usually against their will.

Professional football is a sport to which many young athletes aspire. Those who make it are incredibly well-compensated. Along with the rewards, the players fully understand the risks associated with their chosen career.

I think very, VERY few spectators watch football on the off-chance they might get to see a leg or neck get broken. Sure, the sport can be violent, but that's not the draw. The draw is raw competition, both at the team and individual levels. The awe-inspiring strength and skill of the players.

As for watching the Gulf War unfold, once again I am not sure how you make that connection. Of *COURSE* we're drawn to that coverage: it is something most of us have never experienced. But we don't watch it because we're imagining what happens to the bodies after the missile explodes: we watch it because we're in awe that a missile launched from a submerged submarine can travel hundreds of miles and hit a target the size of your head.

I've never understand why history teachers/enthusiasts are always so eager to draw parallels between ancient and modern activities. NASCAR is modern day chariots? WELL NO SH!T YOU MORON: humans as a species enjoy competition, whether it be football, racing, shooting, whatever. It's one of the main ways we measure ourselves.

In your own words, "though modern safety technology has made actual deaths fewer and further between" - ie., THE SPORT IS MORE CIVILIZED. I think if you actually conducted scientific research you would find that, while the typical NASCAR spectator might be "fascinated" by a good wreck, that's not the primary reason they enjoy the sport (where, in the case of NASCAR, I use the term liberally).

I guess in your world, to prove that we are "civilized" we should all turn a blind eye to car accidents, mothers shooting their children, serial killers, etc.

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[M_Six]

...and completely off topic, did you see that Kubica is probably out for the coming F1 season? Nasty rally wreck. What a shame. I think it was going to be a good season for him.______________________________________________ ______________


Mark
<img src="http://www.bimmermail.com/boston2.JPG" height=77 width=449>
"Things break; it's scientific." - D. Byrne

[beyemvey]

...and that hasn't changed in millenia. We still revel in it as a society, and not one thing you cite proves we have advanced as much philosophically as we have advanced technologically. On the surface, the veneer gives an appearance of greater civilization (certainly in the realm of material culture), but we have made little real progress in quelling blood lust as is evident in the wars and carnage, pogroms, holocausts, political assasinations, terrorism (both domestic and foreign), etc. of the past century. Kids are going postal in the hallways of schools and psychos are shooting Members of Congress in parking lots. Science has brought us medical advances and instant "news"... and I use the term loosely... but it has also given us the tools to perpetrate violence on a hitherto unimaginable scale. Oh yeah Randy, just keep telling yourself we're so vastly superior to the ancients.

[beyemvey]

...considering how well he did last season in a Renault. I'm sorry to hear he was injured.

[Donkey]

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[DDB]

"Professional football is a sport to which many young athletes aspire. Those who make it are incredibly well-compensated. Along with the rewards, the players fully understand the risks associated with their chosen career."

You don't really believe that last sentence, do you? The post-NFL life of the AVERAGE NFL player is, from what I understand, not very appealing. There are a lot of low IQ (lower than average, that is) guys who slum around the league for a few years - according to NFLPA, average NFL career length is 3.3 years - making good money, but basically blowing it all and putting their bodies in serious jeopardy for both short-term and long-term health. The average player, I'm quite sure, does not fully understand the risks associated with their profession.

- DDB

[Donkey]

By the time you make the elite college level - ie., ready to even be considered for the NFL - you know pretty much all the risks: health, financial, celebrity... but you still make the choice because it's what you think you want to do.

Whether it is the "right" choice is irrelevant: in fact, if your gating function is the risk associated with bodily injury, then the entire league should simply shut down as no one can ever play in the league risk-free.

The point is, these guys make their choices of free will. They aren't slaves who are given the choice to either fight to (possibly) live another day or become catfood tonight.

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[DDB]

Obviously they should be free to do what they want - I'm not suggesting that anybody shouldn't play.

Humans in general underestimate risk of any activity, and even moreso when there are large financial rewards attached to said activity. Throw in average IQs at best and the fact that there really isn't an attractive alternative option for many NFL players, and I'd bet my life that many/most don't understand the risk involved.

I'd posit that the financial rewards AREN'T sufficient for many of these guys, despite your claims that they make a lot of money. In 2009, median salary was $770,000, and as I said earlier average career span is 3.3 years. Lob off 40%-50% per year for taxes/agengy fees, and we see that the typical NFL player takes home around $1.3 million over his career. Even if such a player banked all of his money (which would never happen in a league filled with pressure to buy bling, nice cars, rent nice houses, "loan" money to friends and family, etc.), he ends up a 27-year old with a million bucks in the bank and not much to fall back on. A million bucks might be able to provide $20-30K of annual inflation-adjusted income for the rest of the player's life. BFD.

[:) evil]

Thats a lot of TV's that they wont have to steal.....

[Donkey]

Do you really mean to sit there and tell me a third string rookie punter who makes $285k/year and never sees a down of playtime isn't being well-paid?

Stop (for once) trying to apply your financial-planning methodology to everything in life... a lot of people out there just don't GAS about that stuff. A 23-year old kid looking at joining the NFL *and* making 6-figures to do it COULDN'T GIVE A SH!T how much his 401(k) or annuities will be worth when he's 40. Newsflash: <i>that's normal.</i>

So yeah, they ARE well paid. Are they paid enough to live nicely after an "average career span of 3.3 years?" WHO GIVES A PHOCK?!<br />
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[M_Six]

We tend to grossly overestimate the risk of activities that have been the victims of terrorist attacks. Flying, for instance. The chance of dying in a commercial airline crash caused by terrorism is infinitesimal. Yet we spend a great deal of money and time "reducing" that risk. You are at far more risk just driving to the airport.

Many parents drive their kids to school or to the bus stop and wait with them until the bus arrives because they fear the kid may get kidnapped, even though the risk of any one kid being such a victim is tiny. Then the kid gets on a bus wearing no seatbelt and the chance of injury jumps by a good margin.

So there are risks which we tend to overestimate and there are risks we underestimate.____________________________________ ________________________


Mark
<img src="http://www.bimmermail.com/boston2.JPG" height=77 width=449>
"Things break; it's scientific." - D. Byrne

[DDB]

I like how we're talking about football players in general, and the evidence on your side involves the one out of three positions (along with placekicker and field goal kicker) that have by far the lowest risk of injury. Remember, even the benched lineman are getting lots of reps in practice.

Based on your limited debating skills (see above), I think we can safely bring this conversation to a close.

[Donkey]

the classic "I have no response for your argument, therefore I am going to behave like a petulant child and declare the conversation 'over'" tactic.

I couldn't GAS what player position you choose: the argument remains the same. I happened to pick a 3rd string punter because that guy is making the lowest dollar amount of anyone on the team. And he's still making a ton of money.

Since you seem to base everything on some sort of risk analysis, let's talk about an o-lineman. I think we can agree that they are in a injury-prone position, right? And I'll even go you one further: let's go with a starter - a good starter. In every play.

What's that guy making - $3-6M per year on a five-year contract? And you don't think that's well-paid?

Well then, what WOULD be "well-paid?"

I'm beginning to wonder if you weren't the kid in school who always got picked last for dodgeball and usually wound up playing marbles by himself. So now that you're all growed-up, you justify your lack of physical prowess by claiming that NO ONE should play football because the risk/reward doesn't fit into your Life Planning spreadsheet.

Seriously... what WOULD be well-paid for an NFL player in DDB's world?<br />
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[DDB]

Now you've gone to the opposite extreme and cited a person making an unusually high salary. Remember, we're talking generalities, not unusually low-risk positions, and not an atypically high-salaried O-lineman. I obviously never stated that all NFL players are underpaid for the risk. I was speaking "on average".

You're the one who can't make an argument, so you have to resort to specific (relatively rare) examples which validate your pre-conceived notions.