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  1. #61
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    Yes | No

    GT: Can you tell me how the FI system is SUPPOSED to work?

    GT - I'll give that coolant-sensor trick a try and let you know what happens (that's how I get it started in really cold weather, too.)
    But, before I chase down yet another ghost, can you give me a lesson on how the Motronic system actually works? Like, is there some possibility that the noid light (plugged into the connector for #1) is really SUPPOSED to be flashing so fast when the engine is just being cranked by the starter motor? (I mean, that thing was really going to town - it was on more than it was off, for sure.)
    I'll read the Bentley again to find out why there are only 2 leads coming out of C191, one for odd-numbered injectors and one for even, but your last message seemed to imply that there were several ECU-controlled modes of operation for the FI system, and I'm not sure the Bentley deals with that in any detail. I guess my question is, Is there some NORMAL modality that would make the noid light flash so fast?
    Thanks again -
    Neil
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  2. #62
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    Arrrgh !!
    "Refresh my crappy memory as I am too lazy to go through the posts, where did you buy the replacement crank sensor at??"
    “Don't argue with idiots, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

    Find the problem first! Dont spend $$$$$ on parts you may not need.

    Dont be offended if I ask stupid questions, sometimes stupid fixes it.

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  3. #63
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    Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by GeezTech View Post
    Arrrgh !!
    "Refresh my crappy memory as I am too lazy to go through the posts, where did you buy the replacement crank sensor at??"
    I got it (used) on eBay. However, I recently ran in a jury-rigged version of the original, and got no change in the problem.
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  4. #64
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    Yes | No

    Hey, I might actually be getting somewhere!

    Working on the assumption that the noid light CAN'T be supposed to flash that fast, I ran a continuity check on the wiring between the ECU and the #1 injector. Everything is fine from the ECU to the C191: the center pin in the C191 shows a connection to pin #17 in the ECU (and no connection to pin #16); the pin at 5:00 o'clock on the C191 connects to pin #16 in the ECU (and NOT to pin #17).

    BUT: Plugging the C191 back in and checking for continuity between the ECU and the leads to the #1 injector yields results I don't understand: BOTH pins for the #1 injector show a connection to BOTH Pins #16 and #17 at the ECU.(!) This CANNOT be right, right?

    To be completely honest, GT, I never really understood your explanation as to why both pins of the injector show hot with the key on, so I can't be certain that I've found the problem until you verify my conclusions; but it sure looks to me like there's a short (either in the C191 or in the wiring from the C191 to the injectors) that is firing the odds and the even injectors together.

    Also: How the hell do you get the top of the C191 off? The brace that holds it on seems to run half the length of the block!

    What do you think?
    Neil
    Last edited by dandydog; 06-22-2011 at 07:32 PM.
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  5. #65
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    Yes | No
    Okay on the sensor if the results were the same.

    You asked:
    "BUT: Plugging the C191 back in and checking for continuity between the ECU and the leads to the #1 injector yields results I don't understand: BOTH pins for the #1 injector show a connection to BOTH Pins #16 and #17 at the ECU.(!) This CANNOT be right, right?"


    This is your problem! Pin 16 is only for injectors 1,3 and 5 as long as you are measuring this circuit with #1 injector and the DME disconnected. This is the ground control side of the injector. I would next measure between #1 injector and Pin 6 (Br/Wt wire) of C191 with C191 disconnected. Then check #1 injector to Pin 7 (Br/Yl wire for injectors 2,4,6) of the C191, there should be no continuity to this pin from #1 Injector. If this is shorted then this explains the noid flashing too quickly.


    "To be completely honest, GT, I never really understood your explanation as to why both pins of the injector show hot with the key on, so I can't be certain that I've found the problem until you verify my conclusions; but it sure looks to me like there's a short (either in the C191 or in the wiring from the C191 to the injectors) that is firing the odds and the even injectors together."


    Since the DME grounds the injector to make it work (loads the electrical ciruit) and since the engine isn't running the injector isn't grounded and you have 12 volts on both pins.
    Think of it like a light bulb, you have power then apply a ground and the bulb lights, the light it produces is the "load", take away the ground and with no load you will have 12 volts on both sides of the bulb, make sense?

    "Also: How the hell do you get the top of the C191 off? The brace that holds it on seems to run half the length of the block!"

    This is simple, there is a plastic ring that unscrews about 30 degrees then it comes off the connector then you can take it out of the bracket. Use a flashlight and you will see the ring, it is thin and has nubs on it.

    “Don't argue with idiots, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

    Find the problem first! Dont spend $$$$$ on parts you may not need.

    Dont be offended if I ask stupid questions, sometimes stupid fixes it.

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  6. #66
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    Yes | No
    I really, really like that exclamation point, GT! Lemme see what else I can find out, and I'll get back to you later today.

    Later: The multimeter says I've got continuity between the brown/white lead of the #1 injector connector and ALL of the following terminals of the C191: Center post and two contiguous terminals on the ring (probably #6 and #7); no connection is indicated on the other 4 terminals. (The same is true of the red/white injector lead: It shows a connection to the same three C191 pins.)

    This can't be what the guys in Germany intended: I'm going to try to hunt up another FI wiring harness, and I'll be back as soon as I've found one.

    I'd say Thank You, but I'm not entirely certain that we're out of the woods yet. But if this thing ever starts, I'm gonna be all over you, GT.
    Neil
    Last edited by dandydog; 06-23-2011 at 08:30 PM.
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  7. #67
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    Yes | No
    Before you do too much hunting make sure you are doing your checks with the harness "and" injectors disconnected as you will get continuity through the other injectors to the other pins.
    If not done already pull the boot back on both sides of the C191 to make sure you dont have corrosion of some sort causing a short between the wires.

    7 days until our trip begins.
    “Don't argue with idiots, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

    Find the problem first! Dont spend $$$$$ on parts you may not need.

    Dont be offended if I ask stupid questions, sometimes stupid fixes it.

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  8. #68
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    Yes | No

    Okay, we've finally, FINALLY, found something wrong.

    I've pulled the wiring harness to the injectors, and the red/wt lead to #1 is brittle, with bare wire exposed in several places, all the way back into the harness. ALL 12 of the FI pins show continuity ONLY to pin #5 of the C191.
    While I'm gonna hold off on celebrating until the little guy fires up, it seems to me that this problem definitely fits the symptoms.
    More later.

    Later: I've cut the faulty wire back beyond the damage, but I'm still getting the all-roads lead-to-#5 readings, so there's probably a short hidden somewhere in the harness or the connector. I'm not finding the part in any of the Denver-area yards; does anyone have any suggestions? - or a FI wiring harness they're willing to part with?

    Later still: I spent the first couple hours of the afternoon trying to find another FI harness, and the next 30 minutes fixing the one I've got. But, like every other element in this puzzle, the harness is yielding its secrets grudgingly: The thing that got it working was the removal of the rubber top cover of the C191 connector. There was no sign of corrosion and no foreign bodies, and I didn't even tug on the exposed wires: But the next time I checked, I got the correct continuity readings. (I'll be keeping an eye on this.)

    So: I'm going to solder in some replacement pieces of wire and re-test the harness; then I'll wiggle the wires into position on the engine and re-test them; then I'll hook all the wires up and test again. If all goes well, I'll be turning the key sometime Saturday morning, then turning off the engine and putting all the rest of the pieces back on.

    'Wish me luck' doesn't cover it: Pray for me, dudes.
    Last edited by dandydog; 06-24-2011 at 07:18 PM.
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  9. #69
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    Yes | No
    "ALL 12 of the FI pins show continuity ONLY to pin #5 of the C191." ??

    The C191 is only 7 pins, how are you getting 12? Or are you counting the 2 pins at each injector? If so and you have the harness out and not connected to the injectors then this is bad.
    If the harness is connected and you have the plastic cover off the harness and you are back probing the wires at the injectors then this why you have continuity on 12 wires as you are getting readings through the injectors. make sense?

    Pin 5 is the 12v supply for all injectors, it has a solder joint splitting from one wire to 6 between the C191 and the injectors.
    Pin 6 of the C191 is the ground side for 1,3,5 injectors and Pin 7 is for 2,4,6 injectors. same deal, one wire into a solder joint that goes from one wire to 3 wires.
    The solder joints are probably under the plastic cover for the injectors, they have a rubber type cap on them.
    There may be a silver tag on the injector harness, see if it has these numbers "1 719 606". Report back.
    “Don't argue with idiots, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

    Find the problem first! Dont spend $$$$$ on parts you may not need.

    Dont be offended if I ask stupid questions, sometimes stupid fixes it.

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  10. #70
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    Yes | No

    Anybody got a spare oil filler cap?

    I got everything re-connected this morning and tried to get her started. It cranked for about 10 seconds without really sounding like it was gonna catch.
    Then a backfire blew the oil filler cap into the weeds.
    Literally.
    I got no idea where it is.

    Later:
    FOUND the sumbich.
    At least 50 feet away, and 20 feet up an embankment.
    Thank God I was working alone and didn't have anyone peering at that side of the engine.

    GT: Yeah, the FI harness was completely disconnected when I got those readings, and I was referring to the 12 pins on the 6 injector connectors.
    After the debacle this morning I pulled the harness off again, and still get good readings (what you described) at every FI pin. (Readings with the injectors and the C191 connected are, as you implied, pretty ambiguous.)
    And mine has 1 719 520 on a white band (there're a lot of other numbers, too, mostly illegible.)

    I think I'm gonna take a break now, and let anybody who has any ideas about that explosion check in. Please feel free to share your own backfire stories, because I haven't ever seen anything like this before, and I have no idea what it means.
    Nothing good, I'll bet.
    Neil
    On the bright side: Now we know for sure that we've got spark.
    Last edited by dandydog; 06-25-2011 at 03:08 PM.
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  11. #71
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    Yes | No
    Well that is interesting, now the long shot.

    I have seen this once before. Lets just say you had a over richness issue that "may" now be resloved. While the "problem" was happening there was too much fuel going into the cylinders and it has washed the oil off the cylinders and is now in the crankcase. The piston rings never seal perfectly, so it is possible for the fuel vapors to be in the crankcase and the ignition system cam light them off in a case like this because there isn't any oil to help seal the rings against the cylinder walls. make sense?
    It is very odd but I have seen it happen but yours is an extreme with blowing off the oil cap.
    If this has happened then you dont have enough compression to help the engine to fire since the rings aren't sealing.
    Did you ever do a compression check?

    Just to be clear, the harness is now measuring properly after your repairs?

    here is my suggestion:
    1. Change the oil
    2. Remove all the spark plugs and try to squirt some oil down each cylinder. Not a whole bunch, just a few squirts.
    3. Crank the engine with the plugs removed, just a little bit.
    4. Reinstall the plugs and see if she lights up.
    “Don't argue with idiots, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

    Find the problem first! Dont spend $$$$$ on parts you may not need.

    Dont be offended if I ask stupid questions, sometimes stupid fixes it.

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  12. #72
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    Yes | No
    The explosive misfire was caused by the accidental swapping of the leads to #1 and #3 at the distributor cap, probably at the time I replaced the cap.
    I don't wanna talk about it.


    (Much) later: The engine now starts and actually runs on starter fluid (with the fuel pump relay removed); with the FPR in place, however, it turns over without firing up. I think the FI wiring harness is still screwed up; I'll pull it back out and stress-check it in the morning.

    Jesus, GT, I'm so sorry. You've put SO much time into helping me, and I've been such an idiot.
    Neil
    Last edited by dandydog; 06-25-2011 at 10:00 PM.
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  13. #73
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    Yes | No
    Hmmm, that is still strange it backfired through the crankcase though but dont do my suggestions at this time with the wires being switched.
    On that note, stupid question here, is the coil wire on the correct terminal? Big :)
    The distributer cap has the wire positions on it by the terminals, they are hard to see but they are there.

    On the FPR, you have it out of the fuel rail? Why?
    When you put it back in did you also reinstall the fuel pump relay? Or id you leave the relay out and it wouldn't start?
    Do you have a electrical schematic? If not do you have a Fax at the house? If so PM me or e-mail me the nuimber and I'll send Monday.
    This has been fun, no worries and your not an idiot.
    “Don't argue with idiots, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

    Find the problem first! Dont spend $$$$$ on parts you may not need.

    Dont be offended if I ask stupid questions, sometimes stupid fixes it.

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  14. #74
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    Yes | No
    "On the FPR, you have it out of the fuel rail?"
    I removed the 'Fuel Pump Relay', not the 'Fuel Pressure Regulator', to disable the fuel delivery system, just like you taught me. When I re-installed the relay, the engine wouldn't start again, but I've got some ideas about the problem: I'll do some more work and get back to you.
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  15. #75
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    Yes | No

    Okay, we're getting somewhere . . .

    . . . I'm not sure where, but we're definitely moving forward.

    I thought I'd screwed up the repair on the FI wiring, so I took it apart again but found no problem. I reinstalled the harness, reconnected the C191, and this morning I got up the courage to try it again.
    First attempt: Nothing - it turns over on the starter, but doesn't catch at all.
    Second attempt (noid light in #1 injector connector [hence, #1 injector disabled]: Still doesn't fire, but it seems to 'want' to catch - definitely different from first try.
    Third try (#1 injector re-connected and fuel pump relay removed [I'm not really sure why I tried this]): After 10-15 seconds of cranking, THE ENGINE FIRES UP!!!!!!! It runs (smoothly, amazingly enough, after all I've put it through), with normal throttle response, for 15 seconds or so, then dies (as the residual fuel pressure is exhausted?)

    It seems to me that this would indicate that 1) the problem is definitely with the FI system; 2) the engine is being OVER-supplied with fuel; and 3) I've gotten really lucky and haven't damaged the engine with my #3/#1 blunder.

    Okay: What's gonna cause a mixture problem? (I should be pretty well set up to test for a solution - at this point I've got a spare ECU and several extra coolant temperature sensors.) ( And speaking of coolant: There isn't any. I've still got the radiator out for easier access to the front of the engine. What the hell is that going to do to the signal the sensor sends to the ECU, and to the ECU's mixture determinations?)

    DAMN, but it was a MAJOR relief to hear that engine running again. Now, if we can get it to run for more than 15 seconds at a time.

    Instruct me, O Master.
    Neil
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  16. #76
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    Yes | No
    I pulled out the FI harness and re-tested it thoroughly, twisting the wires and wiggling the connectors. The thing is solid: the connections at #1 are ugly and home-made, but all the wiring is totally functional.

    How about this: Crank the engine for a second or two to build fuel pressure; pull the fuel pump relay; then crank the engine until it starts and have a helper put the relay back in?

    What could go wrong?

    Anybody want to volunteer for the 'helper' position? (Hell, the relay is on the opposite side of the engine from the oil filler cap!)
    Last edited by dandydog; 06-27-2011 at 08:10 PM.
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  17. #77
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    Yes | No
    Yes very close, is the fuel pressure gauge still hooked up at this point? If not them lets get that back on until this is resolved.
    You are correct on the residual fuel pressure, when you first turn the key on the system gets pressurized. If you are then removing the relay then it is running off of that fuel pressure.
    Lets get the gauge back on and see what the pressure is doing.

    On a side note to a previous question, no the injectors will not stop when you mashthe throttle during your initial noid test. But they shut off if the engine was at a higher RPM when running when you let off the gas pedal complately until it reaches a certain RPM.
    Leaving in two days.
    “Don't argue with idiots, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

    Find the problem first! Dont spend $$$$$ on parts you may not need.

    Dont be offended if I ask stupid questions, sometimes stupid fixes it.

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  18. #78
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    Yes | No
    The fuel pressure gauge has been hooked up all this time and consistently shows a good, solid 40+ psi.
    Check your PMs.
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  19. #79
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    Yes | No

    AwRIGHT!!! ROAD TRIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    The trick with the fuel pump relay works!
    Now, all I have to do to get a loaf of bread is 1) Turn on the Bimmer's key to build fuel pressure, 2) Jump out of the car and pull the fuel pump relay, 3) Climb back in and start the car, 4) Jump back out and re-install the relay while the engine's still running, and 5) Climb back behind the wheel and drive to the Safeway.
    And this is a HUGE improvement!!!!!!!!
    All things are now possible (at least as soon as I put the radiator back in.) And I've GOTTA be getting REALLY close to having a totally functional car again!
    YEEE HAAAH!!!!!!!!!
    Vaya con Dios, GT!
    Neil
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    Yes | No
    its Josh
    congrads on getting the bimmer running again.
    Josh
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