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    I don't get it anymore (m)

    I've been following F1 for a couple of years, after having given up on it in the early 90's. Watching today's race it occured to me that I just don't get it anymore. How can one car have an insurmountable lead over the second place car for the majority of the race and not raise questions of "advantages"? Are the other teams that bad? How it must make the other teams feel, knowing that unless the lead car breaks there's no way to catch up? As technically challenged (compared to F1) as the NASCAR race cars are, at least there's usually only a couple of seconds between the first 2-3 cars (I'm not a NASCAR hugger, but like to watch races where the competition during the race is a little closer).

    Can someone help me understand?Ernie Peters
    2000 steel grey 2.3 5spd

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    there is an advantage alright, MS driving

    He's just that good.

    Chris

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    Re: there is an advantage alright, MS driving

    Nobody is "just that good". No one person wins these races. It starts with the engineers and the management. It goes through the testers and the builders. Then it gets in the hands of the mechanics, pit crews and drivers. Yes MS is one of the all-time best, but if he were driving the Williams car right now, he would NOT be winning all the races. Plain and simple. You put any of the other top drivers in his car with the support that he gets from his team, and they will win races. Maybe not as many as MS, but they will win.
    Look at it this way, JP is fighting a bad car all the time. MS drives the perfect line, every time. And how can he do that? Well, you got me, he's good. But he wouldn't be able to do that if his car didn't stay under him. He just thinks it into the corner and it is there. In other words, it points where he steers. JP is all over the track, fighting to drive the perfect line. He has to man-handle the car to get it to do anything. To stay on the perfect line, he has to get lucky. The car will just happen to hook up at the right time on that lap. The next lap, it doesen't and he has to fight to not eat a wall. These guys are on the absolute edge of control all the time. If that edge is jagged, you never know exactly what is going to happen. I think MS gets a car every week that he knows exactly what it is going to do. Plus, MS most likely is very good at communicating what is not exactly perfect to his crew so it can be fixed. I am not so sure JP is as good in that arena, but that is just speculation.
    Sorry about the rant, I just felt like being verbose. :-)<html>
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    ======================================<br>Eric Hall<br>1994 740iL<br><font color=#000000><b>Schwarz / </b></font><font color=#b7ac9d><b>Pergament</b></font> 80k<br>Albany, OR<br>eric@[remove.this.before.emailing]@tdsway.com<p/><i>No matter where you go... There you are!</i><br>Buckaroo Bonzai<p/><font face="Wingdings" size=2></font><font face="Wingdings 2" size=2></font><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode" size=3>=</font><font face="Wingdings 2" size=4>55</font><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode" size=3>=</font><font face="Wingdings 2" size=2></font><font face="Wingdings" size=2></font><p><br>BMWCCA #304714<br> Roadfly Inner Circle #48238<br></p><img src="http://members.roadfly.com/erichall/SigGraphic.gif" alt="">
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    why is MS always winning when there is

    another ferrari on the track? Not saying you are wrong, but in all seriousness, it takes a great driver like MS to take a great car to victory. Put me in that ferrari and you better have the helicopter ready to fly me to the hospital, I bet I'd turn it into shrapnel against a wall. Yes, it takes a seriously good team, and a seriously good car, and on top of it all, a seriously good driver.

    Chris

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    Re: why is MS always winning when there is

    I guess my point was twofold. 1) It takes a team 2) It takes a great driver. Your post made it sound like MS is the only one who could possibly be pulling this off (of course he is the ONLY one doing it now, but my position is that it wouldn't be happening if the team and the car were not at the same level). All F1 drivers are extremely good at what they do. But it still takes that rare combination of a great driver, great car, great team, and a whole lot of luck to be champions. Now, don't get me wrong, luck does you absolutly no good if you are not in a position to take advantage of it. The Ferrari team and more specifically, MS, is always ready to take advantage of the situation. That is ONE of the things that makes him great. Put any of the great drivers from history into his car at this point in time with his team and all the other teams falling flat on their collective faces, and that driver would be doing what MS is doing.
    Consistency is another of MS's strengths. And we all know that RB is not quite as fast on a consistent basis as MS is and although he is on the Ferrari team, he doesn't get quite the same level of support as MS does.
    If you put me in that car, you could probably hear me screaming over the sound of the engine and then a loud bang as I hit the wall :-)<html>
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    ======================================<br>Eric Hall<br>1994 740iL<br><font color=#000000><b>Schwarz / </b></font><font color=#b7ac9d><b>Pergament</b></font> 80k<br>Albany, OR<br>eric@[remove.this.before.emailing]@tdsway.com<p/><i>No matter where you go... There you are!</i><br>Buckaroo Bonzai<p/><font face="Wingdings" size=2></font><font face="Wingdings 2" size=2></font><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode" size=3>=</font><font face="Wingdings 2" size=4>55</font><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode" size=3>=</font><font face="Wingdings 2" size=2></font><font face="Wingdings" size=2></font><p><br>BMWCCA #304714<br> Roadfly Inner Circle #48238<br></p><img src="http://members.roadfly.com/erichall/SigGraphic.gif" alt="">
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    Jim Derrig 93 750
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    that's called opening a can of worms . . .

    . . . cause then you get into Austria 2002 and other instances where MS's teammate has been shagged for the sake of the great MS. Seriously, other than Eddie Irvine, MS has not had a team mate who is capable of running with the top flight drivers. And Eddie was canned after his best year. Whether that's a coicidence or a direct consequence of MS's ego is a subject of much debate.

    As for RB this year, I think his relatively poor performance is a direct result of the sub-optimum qualifying strategies he has been regularly saddled with. He's usually on the harder tires, with more fuel, and as a result he starts back in the pack and gets stuck in traffic. When he's managed to break free he's been reasonably competitive with MS speed-wise.

    When I say "suboptimal" I mean that mathematically, its usually pretty clear what the best pit strategy is for a given car and track. MS gets the fast one; RB gets something else.

    Why the suboptimal strategy implemented? Back to the can of worms. I can think of two reasons:

    1. Ruebens is not as good a qualifier and the Bridgestones, though clearly superior as race rubber, do not heat up quickly enough for a flying lap. MS can still compete for the pole. RB cannot, and as a result some grid position is sacrificed to give him a better shot at coming in second.

    2. Now that team orders are banned, Ferrari is making sure RB cannot challenge MS for the lead, but is well place to fulfill his role of getting WMC points. The effort thus is to separate them on the grid by running very different strategies.

    One good question: Given Ferrari's huge budget and obviously superior machines, why doesn't Ferrari pick up drivers that are obviously more talented than poor Reubens? Anybody think Fisichella preferred Sauber? Why is the second-best seat in F1 occupied by Ruebens Barrichello?

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    MS & Ferrari speed & reliability ...

    Right now you are seeing the pinacle of F1 racing.
    Ferrari has the best car with the best reliability managed and engineered by the best and last but not least, driven by the best.

    Today KR and JB <i>could</i> have won the race but they didn't due to reliability issues. MS hasn't broken down in <b>50</b> races!
    That in itself is an incredible record.

    D<br><hr><br><A HREF = "http://stl_don.home.att.net"><img src = "http://members.roadfly.com/stl_don/kitten_sig.jpg"></A>
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    MS is at least 0.5 seconds a lap faster in equal

    cars v. anybody else. Ferrari has a material advantate- again 0.5 seconds a lap or so v. any other car. If anybody in NASCAB had such an advantage, NASCAB would change the rules in the interest of "the show." As to the other teams/drivers in F1, they either need to get better or quit.RichardM///3
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    Jim Derrig 93 750
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    Oh Horse pucky

    If that was true, he'd have won the pole for every race before the 2003 fuel regs went into effect, and he'd be taking every pole in 2003-4 when his fuel load approximated what those near him were carrying. And Barrichello would never outqualify him. But that isn't what really happens, is it?

    I'll agree that he's the best current driver, but let's not overstate the case, okay?

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    You do not disprove anything by citing the except-

    ion. On a CONSISTENT basis, MS and the Ferrari are fastest. Can someone OCCASIONALLY string to together a fast lap and win the poll. Yup. JPM last week was a good example of a driver being almost as fast in qualifying but the car (and driver?) could not sustain that performance for more than a lap or two. Over a race distance, lap after lap, there's no contest. I'm no fan of MS or the "overdog" Ferrari team, but they are what they are.RichardM///3
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    Jim Derrig 93 750
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    And you haven't proved he's ON HIS OWN . . .

    . . . 0.5 secs/lap faster than every other driver out there. You made the claim. The burden of proof is on you. So what proof do you have?

    I suppose it comes down to personal opinion, but in this driver-aids era of F1, I do not believe any driver is worth 0.5 seconds a lap, at least when you are talking the top 6-8 drivers. Too much margin for error has been eliminated by the electronics.

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    Yes | No

    Look at the basic facts....

    1- Ferrari currently builds the best car
    2- Bridgestone tires are better than Michelin (faster, more consistent)
    3- I'm no fan of Ferrari OR MS, but facts are facts. We are witness to one of the 5 or 6 best F1 drivers of all time...the win record, the number of driver's championships & poll numbers all make the case.

    It's all driver aids? Be real. Why is MS' doormat Rubins consistently slower? Becasue he's not as good, on a consistant basis. He OCCASIONALLY is a bit faster in qualifying or in a race- but only when he and his car are PERFECT and MS/his car are signficantly off (Reminder- I don't like Ferrari and their shameless team orders in rare events wthen Rubins is faster) but facts are facts. It's not superior set ups or dis-advantageous fuel strategies. Rubins just ain't good enough.

    Rubins is like 15 or so drivers the the field- very, very good, but not a MS-level (the other 4 or so bought rides and are very decent, but there likely are others ou there as good, or better, only with smaller wallets). In an equal car to MS, Rubins almost always isn't fast enough and it's unlikely anyone else would be either.

    Driver aids? How is it that before pit stops (light tanks, worn tires) MS is nearly always faster than anybody else? Then faster than everybody else on full tanks and new tires? When he needs the speed, it's always there. (Again, it's bush league that he'd rather pass in the pits v. on the track- but he IS faster).

    Again, I don't care for MS but the reality is what we're seeing is like Michael Jordan on a basketball court, Lance Armstrong on a bike etc. etc. The guy is that good.RichardM///3
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    F1 is not faked like NASCAR or Speed GT/Touring

    it was the same in the 30s when Mercedes and Auto Union won everything, it was the same in the 70's when the Lotus 49 dominated, it was the same in the Mclaren Era, and then in the Williams era...... It's ABOUT driver domination and technical advantage.<p align=center>
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    Yes | No

    Faked or not it makes for a more interestin race


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    you miss the whole point of the sport. i watch

    f1 b/c i love the sport and the cars and the idea of these guys doing what they do is absolutely fantastic to me. i also watch to see how much more schumi can dominate. he is showing what he is capable and is waiting for someone to make the next step.

    it's a demo. so guess what the details are.
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    thats why YOU watch

    a lot of us here get tired of the same ms parade every 2 weeks. the dog and pony show that goes along with f1 is interesting for the first few races and then it gets BORING. if i watch motorsports, i want to see action on the track, not just guys driving around and around without any actual racing.

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    I think F1 is the most fair form of motorsport

    outside of single car series like porsche supercup. The reason being is that they don't put restrictions, or change rules, just because one team is dominating.

    To put it another way, what if the NBA had said that Michael Jordan was only allowed to play 1/3 of each game because he was so good? Or if Sammy Sosa could only bat twice each game because he was so good. How fair would that be? Sure, it would increase "competition" because they would be stifling the winners. Maybe thats what you would prefer to see in other sports as well, winners getting taken down artificially.

    Chris

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    no racing in F1? you mean no accidents?

    For one thing only a moron would drive an open wheel car like a sedan.... doorbanging is entertaining but to say there is no racing or minimizing what these guys do is plain ignorant.<p align=center>
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    Yes | No

    To a point SWC Touring is similar...

    I find it incredibly interesting to watch Bill A. race with 200+ REWARDS weight and still win. Now they add 100lbs and reduce 500 rpms and that is just kickin the $hit out of the BMWs. I agree that sucks. But at the same time it is also extremely intense and exciting cus you dont know what is gonna happen the next turn and there are always 5 different makes battling in the top 10.

    I agree F1 is fun to watch in that the cars are amazing and M Schumi is amazing, but I find the closeness of SWC must more fun to watch.

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    F1 sucks, that ALMS race was goof though

    F1 is so uncompetitive. I actually have pretty much lost interest in this season. Sure the qualifying is good but eh, there isnt even any real racing. A pit strategy is not racing if you ask me. I hope next year it will be different. Why doesnt the FIA do like they do in the speed gt and put restrictions on the cars? Mark
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