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  1. #1
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    Yes | No

    Never mind WRC. I'm worried about F1 (long)

    it's down to only 10 teams as it is. BMW may pull out all together if the switch to V8 is made. either Max, Bernie or FIA is killing this sport.


    from PlanetF1.com:

    BMW are considering withdrawing from F1 after the FIA recently announced that it would be cutting engines from V10s to V8s.

    This proposal has not gone down well with BMW, who are currently the WilliamsF1 team's engine supplier. And according to from BMW's Burkhard Goeschel, should the F1's plans to introduce 2.4 litre V8 engines go ahead, they may opt out of F1.

    "Racing is important for our image of sports cars makers, but if the regulations of the Grands Prix change in a penalising way, we may even decide to put our efforts on other categories," Goeschel told the Gazzetta dello Sport newspaper.

    "By going from 3,000cc V10s to 2,400cc V8s we would get very close to the performance of some road cars. As for saving money and improving safety, it would be better to research them elsewhere: the usage of carbon fibre, the aerodynamics, the tyres."


  2. #2
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    Re: Never mind WRC. I'm worried about F1 (long)

    Don't dismiss WRC so quickly. It has just about as much, if not more, history as F1 and it has a whole lot of fans.
    But I do agree with your concerns about F1. It will most definitely change. However, I doubt it will really go away all-together. BMW may drop out, but another constructor will step in because they see oportunity and they already have a V8 2.4 liter engine that could be used. Or the FIA/Bernie will go out and convince anouther major manufacturer to step in by giving them incentives or backdoor financing.
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    Yes | No

    Who else will "step in" with a 2.4L V8!?

    The only major manufacturer I can think of with a V8 that's not in the series is GM, and given the trouble Ford has seen trying to get value out of their F1 sponsorship I can't see them being terribly exicted to jump in. Even the V8's will be very far removed from any street car engine.
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    Not dissing the WRC at all.

    Infact an avid fan, but teams drop out and return season by season. Mitsu, Skoda etc. It would be sad to see Ford leave, but it's also sad they don't offer the Focus RS here in the states.

    I'm just concerned about the state of F1. with the new Junior folmula series coming that will be running 800hp V8s, there's not much to seperate the performance from those to the senior league.

    who would replace BMW? do you really want peugeot back? or yamaha? or Asiatech?

    I'm not sure the enterance requirements for the WRC, but when F1 requires $50M up front just to have a team in F1.. then the actual costs of running a team, I dont see too many others ponying up the dough to join when theres not much to seperate them from junior teams.

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    Re: Not dissing the WRC at all.

    True, it does sound like BMW is adamant about not producing a V8, and it sounds like the FIA is adamant about the rules changes. It is strange that F1 will be limited to a smaller engine than some of their supporting series.<html>
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    Does BMW not want to make a V-8 engine for F1

    because of the marketing with the new V-10-powered M5?

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    Zytec makes a 3.0L V8 for F3000

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    No, they say it is the development costs.

    Plus, they do have a lot invested in the V10. They say they would have to scrap everything they have been working on for the last year and start over. <html>
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    Yes | No

    Several thoughts on the subject...

    I have several thoughts on the subject of BMW threat to leave F1-

    First of all, it's a warning shot to the Max & Bernie group that the proposed change will not accomplish what they say it is supposed to- reduce costs. How exactly will creating an entire new engine formula REDUCE costs?? Does the FIA think all these manufacturers have a V8 lying around waiting to be raced? When the formulas change the only truth is that those with the most money will adapt the quickest- the big teams will be on pace quicker and there will be a bigger time spread to the smaller teams for some time until they can adjust. Remember- the big teams are big because of money- I think BMW may be getting tired of the money treadmill.

    That leads me to... I think it's a warning shot to Williams- get your act together now because we're not married to this thing like you think we may be. If the results don't come soon, we're leaving. Look, BMW has spent MILLIONS over the past 5-6 years and have almost nothing to show except a few assorted wins.

    Finally, it's about time BMW came to their senses! I'm tired of waiting for Williams to produce a championship-winning car. How can they have the most powerful engine on the grid and not produce results? Williams hasn't been able to beat their way out of a wet paper bag for years. Maybe we will see BMW back in ALMS and at LeMans where they will be charge of their own destiny, not Williams.

  10. #10
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    Interestig JJ. But don't you drive for Audi?

    I would like to see a bigger factory presence in SWC and ALMS. This year's SWC GT class has been not as exciting without the PTG BMW's. It is good to see some of the Corvettes and Vipers doing OK, but they aren't my favorite marque to root for.
    I think you are right, it is a shot across the bow. If the other teams don't head the call though, it won't be nearly as effective. Some of the other teams need to jump in and threaten the same thing. I think BMW is pretty serious about this, and if Mercedes, Renault and Honda kick in, it might help.
    I can see how a less powerful engine would potentially help to reduce costs for the smaller teams. Less power means less structural and aerodynamic problems. However, if they are to do it, they need to set the date for sometime in 2006 or 2007. The teams have already dumped a bunch of money into V10 development for next year.
    Yes, I know the bigger teams will still spend the money, but it will be to get that final 1% out of their cars. In the mean time, possibly more teams will be competitive.<html>
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  11. #11
    JJLehto
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    Yes | No

    I do now...

    But I was a factory BMW driver a few years ago...

    I agree that BMW's announcement would have more signifigance if the rest of them joined them in threatening to pull out. I would interested to hear Max's thoughts then on a series without factory supported engines- what would they race? Fords? Sounds like Champ Car! Also, I think BMW's threat is an individual financial decision- it doesn't appear that they care if the others stay or go. It also looks to be based on Williams (lack of ) performance to date as much as economics.

  12. #12
    Jean Alesi
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    Re: Several thoughts on the subject...

    First, congratulations to JJ for participating in this forum. I constantly visit it to pick up tips from the experts. ;)

    Second, I think the financial consequences to the mfg's of switching to a V8 are overrated. Don't forget that BMW developed a 72 degree V10 for 2000, ran it for one season, and then switched to a completely new 90 degree engine. How cost conscious is that? Ferrari has gone through about 3 different designs from 2000-2004, as have Mercedes and Honda.

    Computers take much of the guess work out of engine design nowadays. Thus, the thought is while there might be some development costs up front, the engines themselves might be cheaper. Not because a V8 is inherently cheaper to build, but because the V8's will have fewer exotic materials. The move to 2.4 liters is strictly a safety measure, and the move to a V8 is an attempt to allow mfg's to use some parts (e.g., pistons) from the V10, as cutting 2 cylinders off a 3.0 liter V10 gives you a 2.4 liter V8.

    Third, when the big teams and their backers complain about rules changes, it almost ALWAYS is motivated by a concern that they will lose some perceived advantage over other teams. The last thing McLaren/Ferrari/Williams want is a situation where they have to worry about a privateer like Jordan coming up from behind. Rules which allow plenty of expensive technology, developed over years of profilgate spending by the big teams, help maintain a balance of power in which virtually every championship in the last 20 years except two (Benneton) has been won by the same three teams.

    That this ultimately has created a dull, PONC (parade of noisy cars) series with predictable winners is irrelevant to the big 3. Their inability to see beyond the paddock is truly amazing.

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    My first comment was meant to be tounge in cheek..

    I was assuming that you are not really JJ. We have another guy here who posts as Hans Stuck, but really isn't him.
    If you are really JJ, and even if you are not, I was at the ALMS race this summer in Portland. It was one heck of a fun race to watch. JJ was fighting the whole time to get to the front, it was amazing how many times he had to fight his way back after spins or penalties. I truely enjoyed the experince and look forward to seeing more racing next year.<html>
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  14. #14
    JJLehto
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    Yes | No

    Just my Roadfly name!


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    Glad I could be of help!

    Why would a V8 necessarily use less exotic materials?? A V8 will be able to rev much higher than a V10 (less reciprocating mass) which would involve more exotic materials and technology. That alone makes it a completely different game than just cutting off 2 cylinders from a V10...The engineering and manufacturing process to get there would involve more cost than allowing the V10 formula to continue..

    My main point was that this is probably more of a veiled ( or not ) threat to Williams- that BMW is tired of a string of below average chassis for their very potent engines. Williams has had the same scenario every season for the past five- poor performance in the first part of the season, then they get a clue, and they're on pace for the final few races. But they've blown half of the season getting there. Then in the off season they design an entirely new chassis and the cycle starts all over again.

    Also remember that BMW is one of the founding members of the GPWC....no doubt they are trying to establish a bargaining position with Bernie. With Ford's announcement last week, F1 is in a precarious position. If they can't field 20 cars, does the Concorde Agreement become void? If so, the entire financial deal and series itself may be in jeopardy. I'm not aware that any teams are obligated to run three cars under the Agreement...I think that's only been thrown out by Bernie as a possibility to field 20 cars. Unless he is prepared to fund several teams , I find Bernie's smugness over Ford's departure amusing. Say what you want about Ford's committment to F1 (plenty to criticise there!) but theit is not good news for F1.



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